+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2
Results 11 to 19 of 19
  1. #11
    Starting to feel at home
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    58
    Thanks
    9
    Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts

    Default

    Thank you. This would be the right age at death for Caroline. The problem is that Alexander married Fanny in 1861 and I haven't found any record of divorce for him and Caroline. But I'll look further.

  2. #12
    Starting to feel at home
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    58
    Thanks
    9
    Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts

    Default

    Is this the death for Henry Nathan that you found?
    NATHAN, HENRY 23
    GRO Reference: 1868 J Quarter in WHITECHAPEL Volume 01C Page 272
    It could be the right Henry.

    I've found this also:
    Marriages Sep 1867 NATHAN Henry Abraham Plympton 5b (To either ANDREWS, Mary or CLARKE, Ellen)

  3. #13
    Brick wall demolition expert!
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    3,055
    Thanks
    37
    Thanked 373 Times in 345 Posts

    Default

    Eve
    I have been reading your posts on the possible divorce between Caroline and Alexander. Here is some guidance. First of all, I noted that Alexander and Fanny had a daughter who they named Caroline. The Ashkenazi naming tradition is based on naming an individual after a dead relative. If Caroline and Alexander had divorced would it be likely for a later child in a second marriage to be named after a divorced individual such as the first wife. It maybe that the name Caroline is that of another family member related to either Alexander or Fanny. The Marriage Record of Alexander and Fanny should identify whether or not Alexander was a widower.

    In the case of a divorce Jewish couples were exempt from the Marriage Act 1753 until the Matrimonial Causes Act 1857. It was through the Bet Din that divorce proceedings were held according to Jewish law. A Get (document of divorce) would have to be discussed and agreed by the Bet Din. In contrast under English divorce proceedings the matter was very costly and time consuming. Between 1700-1857 only 323 divorces were granted in England, Wales and Ireland which were through the courts. In contrast the Bet Din a far larger number of divorces were granted over a much shorter period.
    These Jewish divorce and other matters are recorded in the two Pinkas ( minutes) volumes.Pinkas 1 covers June 1805-1833 and is held in the Cecil Roth Collection at the Brotherton Library, University of Leedss Manuscript 267. The second volume covers Sept 1833-May 1855 and is held at the Jewish Theological Seminary Library, New York.
    The Pinkas were written in Hebrew with a very few Yiddish and English entries.
    Post 1857 Matrimonial Causes Act there were another nine years of Bet Din divorce rulings but these ceased in 1866 when the Registrar General ruled that divorce could no longer be granted by the Jewish Ecclesiastical Authorities in London as valid in English law. The Bet Din post 1866 ceased to make rulings on divorce.

    On a related issue, I note that Alexander does not appear in the 1851 Anglo Jewry Data base -JewishGen UK Data base. It maybe that this is an oversight by Petra Laidlaw but having shared research with Petra I know how careful she is on documenting records.
    Was the first marriage of Alexander to Caroline a Jewish marriage? I know that in Berger she has recorded several Moore surnames between 1861-1880 so the name Moore is used by Jews and non Jews.

    I hope the above points are useful.
    Phillip
    Phillip-Jewish,British Ancestry

    "The only true dead are those who have been forgotten"

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to phillip For This Useful Post:

    Sandyhall (17-05-2019)

  5. #14
    Growing old Disgracefully
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    NORTHAMPTONSHIRE, ENGLAND
    Posts
    2,935
    Thanks
    301
    Thanked 428 Times in 407 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eve Mary View Post
    Is this the death for Henry Nathan that you found?
    NATHAN, HENRY 23
    GRO Reference: 1868 J Quarter in WHITECHAPEL Volume 01C Page 272
    It could be the right Henry.

    I've found this also:
    Marriages Sep 1867 NATHAN Henry Abraham Plympton 5b (To either ANDREWS, Mary or CLARKE, Ellen)
    Yes thats the one

  6. #15
    Brick wall demolition expert!
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    3,055
    Thanks
    37
    Thanked 373 Times in 345 Posts

    Default CAROLINE NATHAN

    I noted the Obituary for Caroline Nathan 28 Nov 1860 age 38 Death 9 Nov 1860 spouse Mr Alexander Nathan Worcestershire. This snippet is on Familysearch and the British Newspaper Archives. I can't see the full text because it is a subscription site. Whether or not this is the same Caroline Nathan nee Moore requires confirmation because there is a an address for death in Worcs and not Cheltenham - Caroline would be Death Index Dec qtr 1860 6c 168 Upton upon Severn.
    Her dob would b circa 1822. In addition, there are 2 other Deaths for Caroline Nathan June qtr 1852 Shoreditch 1c 122 and for June qtr 1860 Whitechapel 1c 249.

    I can't locate Alexander in the 1861 census as yet and it would be interesting to know where he was living.

    See also the National Archives UK Divorce data base which has a range of links to various records held by the archives relating to divorce. Note before 1858 only 4 petitions for divorce were lodged by women.
    It seems more likely that Caroline died pre second marriage of Alexander.

    Phillip
    Phillip-Jewish,British Ancestry

    "The only true dead are those who have been forgotten"

  7. #16
    Brick wall demolition expert!
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    3,055
    Thanks
    37
    Thanked 373 Times in 345 Posts

    Default ALEXANDER NATHAN

    The 1861 Census record for Alexander Nathan indicates he was a widower- see FamilySearch (Crown Copyright TNA RG09 17 99 12)
    Cheltenham Gloucestershire
    Alexander Nathan 35 Widower Lodger Jeweller and Photographer b Ludlow Shropshire
    Henry Nathan 14 son b Cheltenham

    The full record appears to be on Findmypast and I have yet to locate it on Ancestry.Co

    The 1861 Census suggests that between 1851-1861 Caroline Nathan nee Moore was dead as per the Death Index Records previously posted on. We know that in 1861 Charles Nathan the other son was a boarder with Joshua Levi in Cheltenham.

    Phillip
    Phillip-Jewish,British Ancestry

    "The only true dead are those who have been forgotten"

  8. #17
    Brick wall demolition expert!
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    3,055
    Thanks
    37
    Thanked 373 Times in 345 Posts

    Default

    Ancestry.Co have recorded in 1861 Census Alexander Nathan as Alexander NELMES - as per my previous post Alexander is a widower living as a Lodger with son Henry in the house of Ann Rattenbury H widow 77 at 2 Regents Place Cheltenham Gloucs.

    Phillip
    Phillip-Jewish,British Ancestry

    "The only true dead are those who have been forgotten"

  9. #18
    Starting to feel at home
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    58
    Thanks
    9
    Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts

    Default Caroline Moore, wife of Alexander Nathan

    Quote Originally Posted by phillip View Post
    I noted the Obituary for Caroline Nathan 28 Nov 1860 age 38 Death 9 Nov 1860 spouse Mr Alexander Nathan Worcestershire. Phillip
    Philip,
    As ever, I'm in your debt. Will try to answer as much as I can in this one message.

    The notice of Caroline Nathan's death is from the Worcester Journal - Saturday 24 November 1860 and says "Nov. 9, at Salopian-cottage, wife of Mr. A. Nathan, age 38."
    This would be the correct age as she's age 29 in the 1851 Census. Why she was in Malvern, I don't know; perhaps they were living apart - Alexander Nathan married again only six months later (April 28, 1861). He may well be the Mr. Nathan of Cheltenham who was in the list of Strangers in the Exeter Synagogue accounts in 1860, in which case he seems to have already had plans of marrying into the Exeter community (his second wife, Fanny Lazarus, was a member the large Lazarus family in Exeter).

    Re the name Caroline for one of Alexander and Fanny's daughters: this was their second daughter (the first was Elizabeth) and may have had nothing to do with Alexander's first wife. Fanny's sister Caroline had died in 1858; perhaps the daughter was named for her.

    Another interesting bit, perhaps: In the 1861 census Alexander is recorded as a Jeweller & Photographer (and in 1891 as an Optician, with Pawnbroker in between). This may be a hint as to how he met Fanny, many of whose Lazarus cousins went into the optical profession.

    Phillip, you noted that Petra Laidlaw doesn't have Alexander Nathan included in her 1851 project. I know Petra tried to be thorough, but there are probably many, many Jews who weren't captured. I was one of her contributors and provided information on only a fraction of the Lazarus clan of Devon. Since then, looking through census records (particularly of East End London), I've realised how many more Jews there were than I think early genealogy researchers guessed. That's no fault of Petra's - Bernard Susser missed quite a few in his research of only the South-West of England.

    Eve
    Last edited by Eve Mary; 17-05-2019 at 9:37 PM. Reason: spelling correction

  10. #19
    Brick wall demolition expert!
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    3,055
    Thanks
    37
    Thanked 373 Times in 345 Posts

    Default

    Eve
    Happy to support. Alexander Nathan was born Ludlow Salop. Salop is the old name for the county of Shropshire and it is adjacent to Worcestershire. Was Alexander visiting family in the region? His son Samuel was born in Birmingham later on so is there a pattern in his movements for that region of the UK.
    Do you know who Alexander's parents were? He started off as a boot maker before doing a range of trades.

    Phillip
    Phillip-Jewish,British Ancestry

    "The only true dead are those who have been forgotten"

+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Select a file: