ARTHUR CHARLES SIMMONDS-JESSIE IDDIOLES

[phillip]

This new thread is in response from another researcher who has asked me to help identify whether or not her Simmonds lines had any Jewish roots. She had already been in contact with one of my Simmonds relatives and was aware of our Jewish roots.
Her family history suggested that the lines may have originated from a Jewish family in France who had migrated to the UK. She is aware that tracing early Jewish roots is complex and records often scarce or non existent. She is also aware that the use of surnames by Jews is also varied and dependent on wide ranging circumstances.
The focus of this post is Arthur Charles Simmonds 1890-1937 and his wife Jessie Iddioles 1893-1973.

The researcher is still trying to identify who the parents of Alfred Charles Simmonds were. Arthur married Jessie in 1913.
GRO Marriage Certificate
St John Evangelist London
Arthur Charles Simmonds 23 Bachelor Carman 14 Morgan Street father Edward Simmonds Engineer
Jessie Iddoles spinster 21 Spinster 14 Morgan Street father Alfred Iddoles (deceased) Printer
Witnesses Mary Ann Wren;Charles Wren

There is another GRO Marriage Certificate which may or may not relate to Arthur Charles Simmonds:
St Stephen Church Wandsworth
29 April 1915
Montague Joseph PARROTT 32 Bachelor Hairdresser 37 Putney Bridge Road father John Parrott (deceased) Iron Moulder
Lily Amelia JOHNSON widow 32 32 Ludlow Road father EDWARD SIMMONDS (deceased) ENGINEER

The researcher does not have the GRO Birth Record for Arthur Charles Simmonds but his WW1 Army Record states that he was 24 years 260 days old when he joined up 3.9.1914 Maidstone Private C Company 9th Battalion Royal West Kent Regiment. He stated he was a carman with a wife Jessie and son Charles 4 Sea..?Street Brady Street? Bethnal Green

He also requested that his religion recorded as C of E be changed to Roman Catholic. The researcher has stated that no member of her lines was a Roman Catholic and the change of religion and speculated on the reason for the change. She has also said that her father's line did adopt and use Jewish words and some customs.

Arthur Charles Simmonds based on his Marriage age and WW1 Service Record maybe Arthur Simmonds March qtr 1889 Lambeth 1d 408 or a later date
Arthur Simmonds June qtr 1891 Chelsea 1a 377

Jessie Iddoles ( the last name has several spelling variations) Baptism Holy Trinity Grays Inn Road Middx
born 27 March 1893 Baptised May 9 1893 Parents Alfred and Annie IDDOLS father Printers Labourer 6 Bedford Court.

Her parents married 13 March 1885. Her mother Annie HURST and father Arthur IDDIOLES.

Any comments from researchers related to the lines welcome and all other researchers contributions also welcomed.

Currently, these lines do not relate to my Simmonds lines or myself.

Phillip

[phillip]

My sincere apologies to the researcher and for #1 the focus is on trying to identify the parents of Arthur Charles Simmonds b circa 1890 and Kensington based on his WW1 Army record. We know his father was Edward Simmonds Engineer based on Arthur's marriage certificate. The father of Jessie was Alfred not as I wrote Arthur. Too many Arthur/Alfred in the data but no excuse for my errors.

There is a London Electoral Record for a Jessie Simmonds and Arthur Simmonds 1926 30f Cheshire Street Tower Hamlets Bethnal Green. This may or may not be Arthur Charles Simmonds/Jessie Iddoles but looks possible.

I will post further based on data from Ancestry.Com and other sources but any help welcome.

Phillip

[phillip]

The following data relates to Lily Amelia Simmonds aka Simonds referred to in #1 of this thread. The data indicates that she had a brother called Arthur Edgar but not Arthur Charles:
1891 (Crown Copyright TNA) RG12425 6 312
54 Baswell Road Battersea
Edward Simmonds H M 40 Gas S..? b Yasham? Norfolk
Sarah Ann wife 41 b Battersea
Arthur Edgar son 15 Office Boy Port b Lambeth
Rose Caroline dau 13
LILY AMELIA dau 11 b Lambeth
Edith May dau b Lambeth
+3 boarders

1911 Census (Crown Copyright TNA)RG14 2426 2
2 Tonsley Place Wandworth
Sarah Anne Simmonds H widow Married 37 years 6 children 2 dead b Battersea
LILY AMELIA JOHNSON widow 31 4 children 1 dead Packer and Sorter Laundry b South Lambeth
Hilda Johnson dau 6 b Wandsworth

Marriage
St Anne Church Wandsworth London
14 Feb 1903
Harry Alfred JOHNSON 28 Bachelor Engineers clerk 35 Marcus Street father Alfred Johnson Railway Guard
Lily Amelia SIMONDS 23 Spinster 3 Tonsley Place father Edward Simonds Engineer
Witnesses Ernest Read;A Watson;Gertie?Clements Read

The surname for Lily was recorded as Simonds with one "m" but other data indicates 2 "m".
Currently the data does not confirm that Arthur Edgar and Arthur Charles Simmondfs are one in the same inspite of Lily having a father Edward and an engineer the same as Arthur Charles. In the case of Lily her father appears to have been a Gas engineer or fitter.

Phillip

[phillip]

Currently the record data does not indicate any Jewish roots for the Simmonds/Iddoles line and there are baptism and marriage records to confirm this. It maybe that the family did have such roots but with possible marriages out of the Jewish religion these roots became reduced and part of family memory.
These are the births for Simmonds with mother's maiden name Iddoles:
Arthur C Simmonds March qtr 1914 St Geo East 1c 532
Edward L Simmonds March qtr 1916 St Geo east 1c 506
Constance L Simmonds Sept qtr 1923 Bethanl Green 1c 268
Denis L Simmonds June qtr 1927 Romford 4a 773

The Arthur Edgar Simmonds who appears in the 1891 Census in the previous post was 15 years old so could not have been the same Arthur Charles Simmonds b 1890

Deaths:
Jessie Simmonds Dec qtr 1973 b 27 March 1893 Greenwich 5b 1148

Arthur Simmonds age 49 Dec qtr 1937 Stepney 1c 187

Phillip

[phillip]

Marriage:
Register Office Pancras London
13 March 1885
Alfred IDDIOLES 22 Bachelor Printer 10 Brill Street father Thomas Iddioles Shoemaker
Annie HURST 21 Spinster H? Street father Robert Hurst Railway Porter (with note Thirty years ?M?L?)
Witnesses John Potts; Eliza Hurst

1871 (Copyright TNA)RG10 146 84 3
5 Princes Court St Anne Soho
Thomas IDDIOLS H M 38 Bootmaker b London
Emma wife 39 b Surrey
Francis son 12 b London
Emma dau 10 b London
Alfred son 8 b London
Rosa dau 4 b London
Nb In same house George SIMMONS or SIMMONDS Coach spring Maker b London. It is difficult to read the last part of the surname and the letter if it is a "d" is not clear

Phillip

[phillip]

The following posts are a follow up to the request of another researcher to help identify whether or not her grandfather and father/siblings had Jewish roots. Further private correspondence suggests that the father and his siblings did have such roots because of meal time practices, cooking practices and customary Jewish greetings. It appears likely that these Jewish roots cam from the paternal side through her grandfather Arthur Charles Simmonds b circa 1890. However we have yet to establish confirmation.
In the meantime, the researcher has asked me to post as much data as is currently available on the family lines which include Hurst/Simmonds/Iddioles.

With regard to the Hurst line which married into the Iddioles ( spelling variations on the surname have been noted in various records) this post looks at Annie aka Ann Hurst who married Alfred Iddioles in 1885.
There are 2 copies of the GRO Marriage Certificate that I have been sent. The first is dated 0ct 1904 and appears to be a requested copy of the original. This copy includes the deletion of part of the original address for Annie Hurst which is very difficult to read and the note that her father Robert Hurst was a Railway porter with 30 years service and then the company he worked for which the initials again difficult to read.
The second certificate issued in 2004 contains similar details but no note about Robert Hurst and his 30 years of service.

The researcher and another related researcher have suggested that Annie was a minor and under age at marriage and lied about her father being Robert. They have argued that Robert was her brother and then looked at the census records for 'best fit'.
The 'best fit' practice is understandable but not always accurate and they are aware of this.

There are issues with the 1904 Marriage Certificate because it has the note of 30 years railway service for Robert Hurst and this is not a common practice on most certificates. Why was it added?

As part of this 'best fit' they have assigned Annie as the daughter of David Hurst and Elizabeth Smith who had a daughter Ann/Annie and a son Robert W Hurst b 1856 and a grandson Robert b 1879. David Hurst dates of birth and death are given as 1832-1872 but need checking. Why Annie lied about her father being Robert and not David is not clear if indeed that is the case regarding the correct family.

I have left all options open regarding the data and will post on the possible marriage of David Hurst to Elizabeth Smith in 1852.
GRO Marriage Record
St Pancras Church Middx
Feb 11 1852
David Hurst Junior Minor Bachelor Servant Gloucester Place father David Hurst tailor
Elizabeth Smith full age Spinster no occupation Passmore Place father James Smith dead ( no occupation recorded0
Elizabeth signed x mark
Witnesses William Allen;Zilpha Allen x her mark

I will post census data on the David Hurst/Elizabeth line.

Phillip

[phillip]

The following records relate to David Hurst and his wife Elizabeth. As per #6 of this thread the relationship between this family and Annie Hurst maybe spurious.
1861 Census (Copyright TNA) RG9 115 83 26
11 Archer Street St.Pancras Middx
David Hurst HM 29 Porter b Kent Minster
Elizabeth wife 32 b Middx Uxbridge
Robert son 5 b Middx Pancras
Tom? son 2 b Middx Pancras
Fanny dau 7 mths b Middx Pancras
Charlotte Ford? widow 31 Laundress b ? Bucks?

Nb On Ancestry.Com a researcher has noted a potential error regarding the birthplace of David Hurst. The 1871 Census records it as Bucks Uxbridge.
1871 Census (Copyright TNA) RG224 96 44
47 Little Clarendon Street St Pancras London
David Hurst H M 39 Paper hanger b Bucks Uxbridge
Elizabeth wife 43 Charwoman b Middx Camden Town
Robert W son 15 Coal boy
James C son 11
Fanny dau 10
Mary dau 8
Ann dau 2

All born Middx Camden Town

By the 1881 Census David Hurst is dead.

1881 Census (Copyright TNA) RG11 201 67 18
9 Little Clarendon Street St.Pancras London
Elizabeth Hurst H Widow 52 Charwoman b St Pancras
Robert son u 26 Labourer unemployed
Fanny dau u 20 Factory Hand Fireworks
Mary dau u 18 Factory Hand Fireworks
Annie dau 14 Factory Hand Fireworks
Robert grandson 2
All born St Pancras

In #1 reference was made to Arthur Charles Simmonds husband of Jessie Iddioles. His trade was given as carman- there are references on the BG Forum to posts back in 2006 regarding the occupation which can cover a variety of trades including delivering/collecting goods for railway companies; horse drawn trams etc...

Phillip

[phillip]

The following post relates to the WW1 Service Record for Arthur Charles Simmonds b 1889-90 who married Jessie Iddioles aka Iddiols and other surname spellings.

There appears to be issues regarding the record and his actual service. The first relates to his Regimental Conduct Sheet Chatham Date of Offence 1.3.1915 Rank Private Overstaying his pass from 12th-14th Deducted 5 days pay.

There are no details regarding where or when he served or his medals or anything else related to his service with the exception of:
Joined Maidstone Service 3.9.1914
Deserted Struck off strength 3.9.14-24.10.1914
26.10.1914 Having been declared a deserter by a Court of Inquiry, struck off strength.

I am not an expert in Military Service Records and my question is that there are 2 entries on his Service Record, the 1st relates to his being struck of strength and the 2nd indicates he was still in service on 1.3.1915 and over stayed his pass.

Any review of his records to confirm whether or not I have read the data correctly would be appreciated.

The researcher who has asked for assistance to identify whether or not Arthur Charles Simmonds had any Jewish roots has re-confirmed that two sons of Arthur did have Jewish customs and in the case of her own father Charles also Jewish eating customs.

On the service sheet for Arthur Charles Simmonds there is an additional handwritten note regarding his change from C of E to Roman Catholic religion but the note overspills into the section relating to Jewish religion. It is very difficult to read the note and this overspill may only been a filling up of space on the paper or it may also refer to Jewish persuasion.

Any help resolving the issues would be appreciated particularly regarding whether or not Arthur Charles Simmonds actually did WW1 service or was he totally struck off.

Phillip