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  1. #11
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    I doubt Helen was born in the Princess Mary Village the village was
    Princess Mary’s Village Homes was the brainchild of two local ladies, Mrs Meredith and Miss Cavendish, who conceived the idea of building cottages in a village as a home for daughters of women prisoners.
    Chertsey Museum has some info about the homes http://chertseymuseum.org/pmvh
    there are some pictures and the 1881 census on http://www.childrenshomes.org.uk/AddlestoneIS/


    there is also an index for the case book which does have Helen on it but says the same as FMP
    https://www.surreycc.gov.uk/culture-...e-homes-pupils

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    Quote Originally Posted by sandiep View Post
    I doubt Helen was born in the Princess Mary Village
    Sorry, I didn't word it well. Her birth was noted as being Aug 1872 and there is a record of her in the Princess Mary Village Homes, but the admission/departure dates don't make sense - Admitted 6 Dec 1883, Departure 14 Nov 1877. Whichever date is correct it was, by that time, an Industrial School.

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    Hi Jomot

    yes unfortunately the index I mentioned also had the dates like that maybe it should be 1887? It was always a school that they formed but the fact that it was started for prisoners children maybe we can find a Prisoner called Wilson that fits needle in haystack though I think...……..but does seem like Aug 1872 seems to be preferred date do you think

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    Quote Originally Posted by sandiep View Post
    but does seem like Aug 1872 seems to be preferred date do you think
    Hi Sandiep

    Yes, I agree. Its frustrating that the admission/leaving dates don't make sense & she cant be found there on any census, but it's a huge coincidence if it's not her. Hopefully the case history / background notes will shed more light on things, should the OP follow up on them (I hope so - I'm intrigued!).

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    Hi Jomot1 and Sandiep

    The Princess Mary Village Homes could answer a lot of questions. Especially if the residents came from across the country, and not just Surrey.

    There doesn’t appear to be a birth for a Helen Elizabeth Wilson in 1872.

    The 1901 & 1911 census say she was born in Yarmouth. But that could be a ploy to hide her or a family members past.

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    Hi Cockney Sparrow,

    I'm sure you have this but I'm posting it for your confirmation:

    Thomas B LONSDALE b. 1866 Brighton, Q3 2B 192 mmn EVENDEN

    Thomas Barlow LONSDALE m. Helen Elizabeth WILSON 1899 Hendon, Q1 3A 219

    I wondered why a man from Brighton and a woman apparently from Yarmouth came to marry in Hendon. It seems that Thomas and his family had already moved there, although there is an age discrepancy with his birth date:

    1891 Census in Denmark Road, Willesden, Hendon, Middx Piece 1047 Folio 119 Page 29
    Thomas LONSDALE son, single, 22, pattern maker, Brighton, Sussex

    So I searched for any Helen born Yarmouth between 1866 and 1881, living in Hendon:

    1891 Census at Stanley House, Stone Bridge Park, Willesden, Hendon, Piece 1042 Folio 22 Page 36
    Helen KNIGHT servant, single, 18, Yarmouth (in large household).

    I have tracked back to a KNIGHT(S) family in Yarmouth but, whilst it's plausible, it's by no means certain.

    I'm happy to post what I have but, as it's lengthy, I'll wait for your response.

    Peter

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    Quote Originally Posted by burt View Post
    My Father was born 18th June 1912 and my Mother 6th February 1916.
    The 1939 Register has my Dad as 26th June 1913 and my Mum as 23rd February 1916.
    I believe this was probably the date my Mum's birth was Registered, but I am not sure about my Dad.
    His Father and Mother and a Sister who was unmarried were all recorded with their correct dates of Birth
    in their Household.
    My conclusion is the 1939 Register cannot be relied upon as giving the correct dates of Birth.
    People are often confused when different records contain different information for the same event.
    What many do not realise is how and why and when the information is collected for the different records. This is very important and unless the family historian understands why the record they are accessing was created, who supplied the information and when that information was supplied they will never know if the information is likely to be accurate or just a pure guess.

    With regards to the census and 1939 National Register the 1911 census is likely to be the most accurate as it is the only one we see filled in by the householder (and we can see who actually wrote the details on the form). Every other census and the 1939 is a transcription of another persons handwriting often carried out in a hurry in less than optimal conditions (allowing for many mistakes and omissions to occur).

    With regard to dates of birth on the 1939 most occurred many years before the register was compiled at a time when knowing how old someone was was not a high priority in family life, unlike these days. It was still a time when a person’s capabilities were more important than their physical age. As a rule of thumb ages would be more likely to be accurate at only three times in their lives, birth, age of officially leaving school, and reaching the age of majority (21) all other ages may be a wild guess.

    Cheers
    Guy
    As we have gained from the past, we owe the future a debt, which we pay by sharing today.

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  13. #18
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    Hello Peter,

    Many thanks for your interest and reply.

    Thomas Barlow Lonsdale was my Gt Grandfather, and as you rightly state, his age when married, didn’t tally. Why did they do that?
    Did he not want to look that much older than her.

    But then the The 1939 Register throws a big spanner in the works.
    It records Thomas B Lonsdale born 25 June 1856, he was actually born 25th June 1866.
    Helen birth is shown as 4 August 1864.
    I was wondering if she was actually 2 years older than Henry. But this gave her the appearance of being a lot younger?

    Thomas B’s father, Henry Barlow Lonsdale was born in 1832, not far from you in Blackburn. He was a Pattern Maker, Engineer and moved to Brighton and worked for the London Brighton & South Coast Railway. Then moved to Kilburn, London when work colleague John Saxby invented his new signalling, and became Pattern Maker for Saxby & Farmer Railway Signal Works. Henry died on April 29th 1871 aged 39 from smallpox.

    As for Helen Knight.

    I have a mountain of paperwork on various Helen’s, Ellen’s and Elizabeth Helens etc. And I must admit that I can’t lay my hand on that particular Helen’s details. But Stonebridge Park has a Blue hi lighter pen on it in my A to Z of London which indicates to me that I have looked and decided it was COLD. Hence the blue. But that was some years ago.
    There maybe more information out there, so perhaps worth another visit.

    Michael
    Just up the road in Tarleton

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