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  1. #11
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    Wow, thanks all so much, I didn’t expect anyone look into this in so much detail ��, really appreciate it.

    . It’s the father of Thomas that has me completely stumped. I just can’t find anything at all for him with Daniel as a father that matches his marriage certificate.

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    Looking at your first post I can see that you have been referring to on line family trees. You need to be cautious when using these as many of them do not include any original sources that you can look at and verify yourself. Often, they are the result of one person copying another's work and then somebody else copying part of the second person's work etc., until the original is lost. I say this as someone who has an on line tree and uses them.

    The only reason that Thomas would have lied about the identity of his father on his marriage certificate would be if he was illegitimate and he didn't want his wife or her family to know. But if he was that takes you no further forward because it's almost impossible to identify such fathers. It's much more likely that Daniel Lay was his father and that the real difficulty lies in the transcription of the surname.

    Old handwriting, depending how bad it is could lead to the letter L being transcribed as a T or an S or others that you wouldn't even think were possible. I recently came across a P transcribed as an F so Parry became Farry!

    This can lead to you having to page turn original documents l˛oking for them. The censuses that have been found above seem to consistently show Thomas being born in Deptford, Kent, (now part of London and just east of Greenwich), which would make sense for Daniel to be a Boatman as it is on the Thames. I would suggest that you look for baptism records for that area and also page turn the 1841 census for Deptford.

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  4. #13
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    Another possibility is that the father’s name has been entered as Daniel in error. Both Thomas & Susannah signed X, so were presumably unable to read or write and therefore unlikely to notice an error.

    There was a Thomas Lay baptised in Deptford on 20 Jan 1828, the son of Matthew & Elizabeth. Matthew was a Boatswain.

    By 1841 they are living in St Luke, Finsbury:
    Matthew Lay 45 Boatman
    Elizabeth 40
    John 15
    Thomas 13
    Susannah 10
    Mary 2

    Matthew died in 1847, and I am unable to find the family in 1851.

    The youngest child appears to have been born as Mary Ann, and in Jun 1862 she marries John Bryan, a Shoemaker, at St James the Great, Bethnal Green. Witness were Thomas Lay, who signs X, and Frances Mary Lay. A daughter Mary Ann (Brian) was born in 1863 followed by Eliza in 1868. It seems that John deserted them as there is a removal order for Mary Ann & her daughters in 1873.

    Although the mother is Elizabeth, there is also a Poor Law examination in 1855 at Bethnal Green for Mary Lay aged 63, widow of Matthew, and her daughter Mary Lay aged 17. Other children named as James 28, Thomas 26 & Susannah 24. Matthew is described as a labourer in this document, but it’s almost certainly the same family as the one in 1841. The document also states that Matthew (or possibly his/her father) was apprenticed as a Shoemaker in Birmingham.

    I think Susan[nah] also married a shoemaker – John Lown(e) – in 1854 at St John’s, Hoxton. Witnesses Samuel Barrington & Dinah Jones.

    James married Frances Mary Toms in Stepney in 1854. In later census James claims to be born in Birmingham.

    Although not proving anything, there’s certainly a case for this being Thomas’s family – born Deptford, father a boatman, and living in or around Bethnal Green in the 1850’s.

  5. #14
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    I have looked at the family trees on Ancestry which show Thomas as the son of Daniel and Tryphena, and I don’t that he was their son, because (1) the 1841 census shows that Daniel was a solicitor, and I would have expected his child to be able to sign his name, and from his marriage certificate he obviously could not, and (2) according to those family trees that Daniel died in 1843, and whilst it is not conclusive, Thomas’s marriage certificate (1852) does not say his father is deceased.

    I wonder if this was Thomas in the 1851 Census: Piece 1954 Folio 156 Page 47, when he’s in a lodging house in Bristol, along with others, and described as a “fly driver”, who was probably someone who drove a “fly” which was a one horse two wheeled light carriage. There are some other possible definitions but that’s the most likely one.

    With regards to Jomot1’s post #13 I don’t think that the Thomas Lay baptised in Deptford in 1828 to Matthew and Elizabeth is the one that you are looking for because from at least 1841 they were living in the Finsbury area, and it not be unreasonable to believe that the children including that Thomas would have thought that is where they were from. In the 1871 census there is a Thomas Lay born about 1832, and married to Sarah who says that he was born in the parish of St. Luke and who was living in Finsbury (piece 411, folio 22, page 13) and I think it likely that he is the Thomas who was the son of Matthew and Elizabeth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan Roberts View Post

    With regards to Jomot1’s post #13 I don’t think that the Thomas Lay baptised in Deptford in 1828 to Matthew and Elizabeth is the one that you are looking for because from at least 1841 they were living in the Finsbury area, and it not be unreasonable to believe that the children including that Thomas would have thought that is where they were from. In the 1871 census there is a Thomas Lay born about 1832, and married to Sarah who says that he was born in the parish of St. Luke and who was living in Finsbury (piece 411, folio 22, page 13) and I think it likely that he is the Thomas who was the son of Matthew and Elizabeth.
    I'm not certain about the Thomas s/o Matthew either, but I still don't think he can be ruled out. The Thomas Lay married to Sarah (nee Moody) married in 1858 & names his father as Thomas Lay, Cigar Maker so I'm reasonably satisfied he is not the son of Matthew the Boatman & Elizabeth, but can I heck find him before 1871! In 1881 he gives his PoB as Whitechapel.

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  9. #16
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    Massive thank you to all of you for your help. I will start digging a little deeper and see what I can find. It’s really given me some option/, really appreciate your help x

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