The mysterious Hardy

[Ashleigh_]

Good idea. I will do that.

[Megan Roberts]

I cannot see any marriage in England and Wales between an Albert Hayes (including different spellings) at any between an Agnes Smith or an Agnes Hardy.

It suggests to me that she was never married to either Albert Hayes or Mr Hardy.

I think that it would be interest to buy a birth certificate of one of the Hardy children to compare what it says about the father with the details given for Albert Hayes on his acknowledged children's birth certificates.

By the way Albert Hayes was living with his sister Leah Fisher and her family in the 1901 census: Class: RG13; Piece: 3730; Folio: 74; Page: 19

[christanel]

What do you mean by the Latin versions? Why would they have been written in this way and not just as Florence, Mary, Agnes and Thomas?

Although this makes sense because I was told that Agnes was a Catholic.

This is why the baptisms were written in Latin. The Latin version was only used in written records not in every day speech.
Christina

[Ashleigh_]

OK but don't ignore the second part of the message. You could ask GRO for a birth certificate quoting the two quarters, her name and her exact date of birth. You don't have to peer at the index wondering which one it might be.

I just searched the GRO index but there was no Agnes Smith born in the last quarter of 1881 in Salford. If I remove Salford from the equation there are 12 to chose from and 14 registered in the first quarter of 1882.

To order the certificate as you suggested I would need to know the place she was born and unfortunately I just don't know and I don't know how to find out.

[Peter Goodey]

To order the certificate as you suggested I would need to know the place she was born and unfortunately I just don't know and I don't know how to find out.

If the online form isn't adequate, phone them

[Megan Roberts]

If order on line on the first page tick NO in answer to the question "Is the GRO Index Reference Number known?"

Then on the second page you will see a question which asks:

Date of birth (dd/mm/yyyy)*
(If you do not know the exact date enter 01/01/1881, we will search the specified year and one either side)

So specify the exact date, which you have from the death certificate.

Then what you have to make a choice about is the place of birth, which is the registration district. I am NOT suggesting you purchase the 9 possibles I suggested in my post 3 to you, BUT if for those that you do order turn out NOT to have the exact birth date that you specify you will get an instant no quibble refund, providing you do NOT list the GRO reference.

[Peter Goodey]

Then what you have to make a choice about is the place of birth, which is the registration district.

Check whether the form will accept a place of birth of "unknown".

[Ashleigh_]

Thanks so much for your help everyone. I think that I now have a couple of leads to start with and hopefully might be able to get somewhere

[peanut]

Hi

Thought you may find this interesting in the 1901 census there is a Thomas Hardy born 1882 living in Nelson Street Salford, big family father Robert mother Harriet but what is interesting is that Thomas has a sister named Leah, probability could Agnes have named her daughter after this Leah
Also someone may be able to translate this better than me, but on Florence and Mary's baptism records both baptised on the same day there is an added note Sub. Con. "Sub cond" is often used in cases where there is no certainty of a previous baptism. Following the birth of an illegitimate child or of mixed religions maybe Thomas and Agnes didn't marry

Peanut

[Ashleigh_]

Hi

Thought you may find this interesting in the 1901 census there is a Thomas Hardy born 1882 living in Nelson Street Salford, big family father Robert mother Harriet but what is interesting is that Thomas has a sister named Leah, probability could Agnes have named her daughter after this Leah
Also someone may be able to translate this better than me, but on Florence and Mary's baptism records both baptised on the same day there is an added note Sub. Con. "Sub cond" is often used in cases where there is no certainty of a previous baptism. Following the birth of an illegitimate child or of mixed religions maybe Thomas and Agnes didn't marry

Peanut

Thomas and Agnes not having married seems to be the most logical answer. But it is strange that there is also no record of her marrying Albert. I would have thought having a child out of wedlock would have been quite the scandal in their day. I'm still puzzled as to what happened to Tom.

Why would Agnes not have put Albert Hayes as the father of Albert jnr on the birth certificate and instead leave the father's name blank? but then baptise him as Albert Hayes jnr a few months after the birth? She was already living with Albert Hayes Snr at the time of birth.

The GRO index has allowed me to order the certificates for Florence Hardy and Agnes Smith with the place of birth entered as 'unknown'. I am hopeful that I will get a record for Florence as we now know her father's name, and DOB as well as her mother's name. We will have to wait and see about Agnes' because all I was able to give them was her name and full DOB.

Thanks for the info about the Tom Hardy you found in 1901. This could possibly be our guy. I will try to see if this particular Tom Hardy died around the time Albert Jnr was born...