Introduction & unusual request . . .

[phillip]

Hi Jen
Who is the Goldsmith line which has matches to your DNA? Have you checked names and any potential links to your lines?
I don't know enough about DNA to make any informed comments and it may be worth while your posting the data on the DNA Forum and seek advice.

Are you looking at Goldsmith rather than Goldsmid/Goldschmidt?

Phillip

[phillip]

Hi Jen
I have been looking more closely at James Phillips of Tann Street and noted that there was a James and Mary Phillips of Fanns Street Aldersgate. He was a clerk and his son Edward? Stanley was born Feb 23 1816 and baptised 28/4/1816 St Botolph Aldersgate.

This record may have no relevance to the James Phillips of 3 Tann Street but I am aware that addresses can be written incorrectly.
My thinking is who is the James Phillips writing in 1819- is he a father/relative of John Phillips or is he writing on behalf of others?

If we could locate this James Phillips it might prove a great help. I have tried to cross check the Tann Street/Fanns Street address with London Birth/Baptism records for Phillips -Aldersgate but so far only Fanns Street has come up for a period +- 1790- 10 years.

You might want to look further.

If any other researcher reading this post can help trace James Phillips 3 Tann Street Aldersgate circa 1800-1820+ it would be a great help.

Phillip

[phillip]

Hi Jen
The James Phillips of Fanns Street appears in several Ancestry.Co family trees born 1791-1867 =Mary Roberts. This James was an Attorney and Solicitor. He is likely to be one of the James Phillips recorded in the Articles of Clerkship. He can't be the father of your John Phillips and there is no record of his father nor any proof he is linked to the James Phillips of the 1819 South Africa settler letter but I think it is important to try and trace the 1819 James Phillips.

Phillip

[JenBales]

Hello Phillip,
I trust this finds you well.
My brain has gone into overload recently – so much new info to try and take in . . .
I see yesterday, that my mtDNA has been included in the Goldsmith DNA Project
330391 United Kingdom T1a1 (Me - Phillips)
363704 Unknown Origin T1a1a1 (Goldsmith DNA)
I posted my test in when I was visiting my younger sister in London. Presume that is why UK is named, and not South Africa.
The earliest known common maternal ancestor to all people alive today as well as several ancient humanoids are the basis for the RSRS. Thus, a comparison to this reference reveals clearly the path between each person and our shared maternal ancestor. In general, those who share the same direct maternal ancestor within the last fifteen generations should have mtDNA results that match exactly – which is what we have. So exciting!!
I then went through the names of people that have a match and was amazed to pick up the following names in “Ancestral Surnames Entered”:
I found five different PHILLIPS – 3 from the USA, 1 from Wales and 1 from England. I sent an email to the first Phillips on my list, David B. Philips f. Zachariah and no mother entered. He sent an email back but was not keen to go further than respond with a few of his family names – none of which matched any of ours.
The other surnames entered by people that match my mtDNA that were familiar from doing my family research were:
Cawood 1
Jacobs 6 *
Jacobsen 3 *
Wood 5
Whitfield 2
Jones 4 *
Hall 4
Hart 2 *
Brown 5
Smith 7
Hughs 2
Randell 2
Levy 1 *
Payne 1
Phillips 5

The names that I have used a * against are not people’s names that I have in my Tree as yet, but I recognized the names that you have mentioned to me as members of your family? Strange how I share my mtDNA with them . . . Wouldn’t it be incredible if we were related (*laughing!*)
I have been going through the old letters that LLF Woods wrote to my Dad:
(My John PHILLIPS was an 1820 SA Settler)
His FATHER, John Phillips, was an illegitimate “son of a world banking family”.
(His mother then, must have been a PHILLIPS, so son took her name ??)
His MOTHER was a Miss Goldschmidt. They eloped, so she was excommunicated from the Jewish faith for marring a Christian.
So we have PHILLIPS who married a GOLDSCHMIDT and had a son. (my John) Did they have other children. . . ??
I have read that the name Goldschmidt was changed to Goldsmith, in England.
I found this: Could this be John’s mother and father ??
Samuel Phillips was born, the son of Mary (Farley) and Jonas. He was baptized on February 9, 1774. He married Ann Goldsmith on January 28, 1798, in London, London, England.
Family Relationships
Children One child
Life Story Events
Baptism
9 Feb 1774 • St Sepulchre,London,London,England
DEC
Ann
1775–28 Jan 1798 • Saint Bride Fleet St ,London,London,England
ANCESTRY
Ann Goldsmith (MMXG-SQT) b. 10th April 1775 St. Sepulchre, London, London, England.
Christening: 1 May 1775.
Father – Charles
Mother Elizabeth

There is other info in the letter regarding general info in which LLF Wood say that “we may find some discrepancies – not important ones- basic facts accurate.
I have checked it out and they appear to be correct. A couple of examples:
05/07/1828 - John joined Major William Dundas force to move against the “Amangwane”
1829 - married his wife Sarah, aged 26.
1830 - his daughter Elizabeth Goldsmith was born.
1833 - Had a house on Government Land, 1.5 miles upstream from Great Fish River Mouth, on the right bank.
25/02/1839 - Sentenced to six months imprisonment for selling Muskets to the Xhosa (what !!!!!!) I did read in another article that Norden owned a hardware store in Grahamstown, where he also sold guns. Were these two in cahoots?? . . they did come over on the same ship! I have always suspected that there is more to the Norden/Phillips connection!
15/10/1839 - Associated with John Hayhurst (brother-in-law) and Leo Whitfield in obtaining cattle from xhosa by Barter.
1845 - Had a Ferry Boat on the Fish River.
05/01/1843 – Was elected by the Cuylerville farmers as Leader in Emergency.
Etc . . .
Your thoughts ??
I look forward to your comments as usual
Kind regards.
Jen.

[phillip]

Hi Jen
Good to see the new data. Some questions for you- Does your DNA give any percentage of Jewish roots - it will be your paternal line so may not.This Miss Goldschmidt - if she is connected to the Goldschmidt bankers then she would also appear in their family tree and if I remember we couldn't find such a link unless she is a very distant Goldschmidt. Your original story regarding the Rothschild link via Phillips remains unproven.

Is the surname link Goldsmith or Goldschmidt and if so where does the Elizabeth Goldsmid Phillips middle name derive?

Can you provide any data on the Levy, Hart, Jacobs names on your DNA list?

Best wishes
Phillips

[phillip]

Hi Jen
A key point regarding the surname change of Goldschmidt to Goldsmith- I posted on this and the name change was much later on and certainly a lot later than your Phillips. There are Goldsmith Jewish families and even one which has Hart and South African links but this family is the David Goldsmith line of the 1800s. There is also as an example, a Rose LYON Goldsmith who died in 1878 age 67 (married name).
However, there is still no data to connect any of these lines to your Phillips.

Phillip

[JenBales]

Hi Phillip
Sorry for not replying earlier - I have had house guests all weekend - with 10 family members and friends for sunday lunch!!
Will reply tomorrow
Kind regards.
Jen.

[JenBales]

Hi Phillip
This is what I have as matches to my mtDNA:
p = Paternal and m = Maternal
JACOBS
Robert Ray Spulak p.Matej b.1805 (Bohemia) m.Margeret Jane Williams b. 1844
Robin Wright p.Elias m.Mary Kingsbury b.1822 d. 1881
Marilyn Margaret Elizabeth Benn p.Hugh Benn/Bain b.1689 m. Nancy Wilson b.1808 d.1891 d. 1767
William Scott Elliot p. John Rafter(Ohio) m.Lena Slyomovics b.1882 d.1941
Warren Louis Forsythe p. Robert b.1755 (Magherally) m.Juianne Sophia Hautz b.1697 Hasslock d.1795 Pfalz d. 1745, USA
Linda Maldonado p. - n.k. m - n.k.
Kerry Blackburn p.Marcus m.Fishler - anchestral names: Fishler (Dorohoi, Romania) Jacobs (London)
LEVY
Kimberly Frankel-Obal n.k. Anchestral names- Frankel/Hill/Levy/Obal
HART
Kevin Wayne Walls p. Charles b. 1756 n.k.
JACOBSEN
Dolores Lamb Heubner p. Gottlob Mory m. Ingebjorg Fjalestad
Judith Cohen Davis p.Johan Michael Pehle m. Barbro Knudsdatter
Corinne E. Hutchison p.Ole Christiansen Lind n.k.
JACOBSSON
Anne-Kristin Inger Bergstrom p. Lars Carlsson m. Kerstin Jonsdotter
PHILLIPS
Debbi Noakes (Newlin) p.John Ann Walters (Jersey)
David p. Zachariah b. 1786 (NC) m. n.k.
April Mechele Ice p. Charles Emery Langford m. Racheal Curnutt (USA)
Jeffery D White p. William Henry Snyder m. Elizabeth (USA)
Kenalea Johnson p. John Longwell (Welsh) Mary Corrigan
Julie Wilson p. William Henry Snyder Sarah Dunlap (Buckinghamshire, England)

I came across this: it is from heymannfamily site:
10 . . . Julia GOLDSMID born 1783 Died 1823
+ Philip Moses SAMUEL Born: 1787 Died: 1871
Mother: Ms Rachel PHILLIPS Father: Mr. Moses SAMUEL
11. . . Caroline SAMUEL Born: 1814 Died: 1885
+ Frederik David GOLDSMID Born: 31 January 1812 in London, England Died: 18 March 1866, London, England
m. 23 July 1834
Mother: Ms. Isabel Bayla GOLDSMID Father: Sir Isaac LYON

Interesting! There is my PHILLIPS name again - Could this be where the hint of John Samuel Phillips comes from ?? And LYON and they have a John LEOPOLD as well . . .
I agree that it would proof to be valuable if we could find James Phillips of 3 Tann Street. Why would he have written a letter to Wilson. There is no James Phillips listed on the La Belle Alliance - only John Phillips. Hmmmmmmm!!
Look forward to your comments.
Jen.

[phillip]

Hi Jen
We looked at the Goldsmid/Samuel et al earlier on in the research. If you look on Cemetery Scribes under Frederick David Goldsmid (David Tevli b Isaac Aryeh Ha Levi) ID 7724 you will see his parents Sir Isaac Lyon Goldsmid 1778-1859 =Isabel Goldsmid 1788-1860. Then, if you go onto Synagogue Scribes Will Extracts you will also see Benjamin Goldsmid; Asher Goldsmid NA 534 25 Nov 1822 and then the various Goldsmid and associated family links. Take a look at the other Goldsmid wills and you will see how they inter connect.

This brings us back to your John Phillips and the Goldsmid/Lyon middle names for two of his children- I think that there is a link to the Goldsmid but at present we can't locate the connection. Are the James and John Phillips in the marriage record with Benjamin Goldsmid any relevance to your John- I think there is a chance that there is but no proof. Who is the James Phillips and the Fann/Tann Street address was he the clerk to Benjamin but bearing in mind Benjamin died in 1808 and the letter was 1819.

Is there anything at all to connect you to the James Phillips and the Goldsmid?

What do you think?
Phillip

[JenBales]

Hi Phillip
I missed confirming that in LLF Woods letter he writes that John was the illegitamate son of a Rothschild. Therefore his mother must have been a Phillips and so son took her name - presumed . .
I have only come across the Rothschild name a couple of times in my reseach to do with my surname, Samuel Phillips & Co and then Charles G Phillips, who supervised Nathaniel Philip Victor James Rothschild during his time at the Investment Firm Gleacher & Co. He said that he was one of the few sons that created his own wealth.
The burden of being a Rothschild was a heavy one - a cousin hanged himself at 41 and 4 years later another overdosed!
I doubt that we would ever find any proof on this hinted connection and quite honestly am happy to leave it at that!
The Goldsmith/Goldsmid connection however I have every hope of achieving
I am now in contact with one of Elizabeth's living relatives and have asked him to email me copies of any marriage certs or her DN, so will let you know what is written in those, should we find them. (If you are reading this Sue McKay - maybe you would be willing to assist as well ?)
Have a good day!
Kind regards,
Jen.