Introduction & unusual request . . .

[phillip]

The only John Samuel Phillips that I can currently see on Ancestry is Baptism 30 Sept 1799 St Giles in the Fields Holborn-parents John/Elizabeth. There is another but he is recorded in the UK in later Census. Not sure if we have looked at these names much earlier in the searches.

Phillip

[JenBales]

Morning Phillip
I remembered that I missed a piece of info yesterday!
Bequests from Benjamin Goldsmid 8th August 1808- . . ."and James PHILLIPS, Cuthbert Rippon and Thomas Nixon (Benjamin's clerks);John Hamilton of the Crescent, Kingsland Road. Rebecca Gree, Widow; Rev Hershall; Abraham David Gompertz; Sir Thomas Moxom; Benjamin Goldsmid Elliot and his wife Lavina, Joseph hart-Myers and Joseph's brother-in-law John Jacobs; Isreal Moses brother of Edward Goldsmid; Mary Sturdy Catley in his employ."

Benjamin Lyon Phillips was the father of Coleman Lyon Phillips. The children of Coleman Lyon Phillips mentioned but not named.
Don't know if all of the above is of any significance ??
I had a look at PHILLIPS Samuel Levi Will Extract - probate date 1812 (13 OcT) Address Hverfordwest, Pembrokeshire. BANKER.
Children: Sons Philip, John, Nathaniel and Stephen Sewell Phillips and daughter Sarah Charles.
Other relatives: Brother in law, Benjamin Jones.
The name Jones rings a bell at the wedding of James Phillips ??
Have a good day.
Kind regards.
Jen.

[phillip]

Hi Jen
As an important re-cap as you already know my connection to the Goldsmid lines is twofold:
1 See BG Jewish roots thread Henry Goldsmid and Sarah Ward Ogle line 27.10.2011 #1 and 7 in particular. You will see that my John Hart/Elizabeth Jacobs my 3x great grandparents line married into the Benjamin Goldsmid descendants through Catherine aka Kate Hart. She had married 1st Abraham Crawcour 2nd Lionel Cambell Goldsmid- Lionel was the son of Henry who was the son of Benjamin Goldsmid died 1808 the financier. This is the Benjamin Goldsmid with sister Hester who appears at the wedding of James Phillips his clerk

2 I then have a second Goldsmid connection through the marriage of Albert Aaron Goldsmid son of Joseph Goldsmid son of Michael Goldsmid to Phoebe Hart daughter of Aaron Hart/Ann Rebecca Crawcour my 3x great grandparents.
See BG Forum thread Dr Joseph Albert Goldsmid

There are Ancestry family trees which have incorrect data on the lines - see Synagogue Scribes for data on Michael and Joseph Goldsmid plus JewishGen UK Data base 1851 Anglo Jewry Census Joseph Goldsmid ID 27668

The Michael Goldsmid Ha Levi line is one I need to research further.

I do not know if the Michael Goldsmid line connects in any way to Benjamin Goldsmid or his siblings.

Returning to your Elizabeth Goldmid aka Goldsmith Phillips- the key question is which of the middle names is correct/relevant in terms of any Benjamin Goldsmid relationship bearing also in mind your original posts on this thread where Goldschmidt was also used as a potential last name. The Goldsmid and Goldschmidt are different families.
With regard to Henry Lyall aka Lyon aka Lyons Phillips the same issues apply as to his sister- what is the correct middle name and does it in any way have any relationship to Benjamin Goldsmid and the James and John Phillips as per the wedding data.

In both cases of Elizabeth and Henry these middle names are important because they are either relevant to Goldsmid/Lyons connections or if not Goldsmid or Lyon/Lyons then the connection maybe nothing at all to do with the Goldsmid and the Jewish link as per your original posts.

Why are the middle names spelled differently? Is it purely because of a recording error later changed in later records or is the spelling actually Goldsmith and Lyall and those were the correct names subsequently modified over time. That is a key issue.

What are your thoughts?
Phillip

[JenBales]

Hi Phillip,
I have a copy of a marriage between Elizabeth GOLDSMITH Phillips and Valentino Boraine. But then the entry No 287, when she was baptised on Dec 27th by Rev James Barrow looks like her name is written as Elizabeth GOLDSMID. I have a copy of DN FOR Henry LYONS Phillips, also he signed his name as LYONS on John's DN. There is a picture of Henry Lyons Phillips hanging in the Albany Museum in Grahamstown, Eastern Cape, as well. I have seen Henry LYALL used only once and feel that it was a miss spelling.

Good news! I have made contact with a new “cousin” who is now living in Texas, USA.
His mother was a Borain. These are the details:
Her father was William Robert Borain and mother was Violet Blanche Borain. They were 1st cousins once removed. William Robert’s grandfather was Valentine Borain and Violet’s father was Austin Borain. Valentine and Austin were brothers. Another brother of theirs, George Bennett Luke Borain introduced the extra “e” at the end. Some of his children are Borain, some are Boraine.

Elizabeth is GOLDSMITH second name in the Borain family.
She married 3 times and he reminded me that one husband was George Chappel Hyam who was
b. 1836 in Shepton Mallet, Somerset, England. He died 2 December, 1900 in Durban, Natal, South Africa.
George’s father was Stephan S. Hyam and mother Elizabeth Hyam.

I have filled in my new “coz” and asked him if he had any idea who John’s family were in England.
Unfortunately not – but he did say this:
Goldsmith is a very famous and rich family in the UK, so I’m sure the genealogy is very well studied. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Goldsmith) James’ father was Francis Benedict Hyam Goldsmith. Note the “Hyam” name, also present in our trees. His father was Adolphe Benedict Hayum Goldschmidt. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldschmidt_family “The English branch of the family Anglicised their name to Goldsmith”.
May not be related, but could be worth investigating further.

My dad’s cousin LF Wood wrote a letter saying that John’s mother was a Goldschmidt (his spelling) which is what got us all interested in trying to found out who the PHILLIPS family were.

Your thoughts ?
Kind regards.
Jen.

[JenBales]

Hi Phillip
What do you think of this ???
My cousin Basil Phillips, who found me a few years ago and lives in Australia states that JAMES is a family name. Made me think – what if John is actually James ??

James Phillips
1803–Deceased • M4N7-F3C
Father: Thos. Phillips
Deceased • M4N7-FQ7
Mother: Ann
Deceased • M4N7-FQK
No Marriage Events
Children (1)
Christening

10 APR 1803 - Saint Leonard, Broseley,Shropshire,England
Name: James Phillips Gender: Male Christening Date: 10 Apr 1803 Christening Date (Original) 10 APR 1803
Christening Place: SAINT LEONARD,BROSELEY,SHROPSHIRE,ENGLAND
Father's Name Thos. Phillips Mother's Name Ann

Kind regards.
Jen.

[phillip]

Hi Jen
I will look first at the Goldschmidt line but as a recap we did note Rothschild/Goldschmidt connections and this brings us back to your family history story as you first identified on this thread- the Phillips/Rothschild/Goldschmidt story.

However, this Goldschmidt line is not the same as the Goldsmid as you know.

I can't remember if we noted the marriage of Emma Rothschild 5.8.1868 daughter of L M Rothschild 35 Porchester Terrace Hyde Park to Louis A Goldschmidt of Paris and Dubnik, Hungary and the birth of a son in Paris Rue de Rome on 30.5.1869- The Jewish Victorian.Genealogical Information from the British Newspapers 1861-70 transcribed and edited by Doreen Berger, 2004 Publisher Robert Boyd.

The new issue is this- are we now looking at Goldschmidt/Goldsmith rather than Goldsmid?
If this is the new route do we discount the Goldsmid/Phillips marriage record as per Benjamin Goldsmid at the James Phillips wedding.

It seems to me that this data maybe the only tangible connection between Goldsmid/Phillips and even then there is no actual confirmatory data.

Coming back to the John/James Phillips line is the clue the James Phillips at the wedding with John Phillips? We just don't know.

The James Phillips 1803- he can't be your John b circa 1798-1800 and there is a real danger of getting side tracked on any James/John Phillips without any confirmed data- you don't want to pluck names from data as some other researchers do and then 'best fit'.

Phillip

[JenBales]

Hi Phillip
I came across this yesterday from Geni . . .
John PHILLIPPS was born on October 16 1798 in Holdborn, London, Middlesex, England.
John (father) was born in 1775, in Whaplode, Linconshire, England. John (mother) PHILLIPPS (born Goldschmidt)
John married Sarah Elizabeth PHILLIPPS (born HAYHYRST) on January 2 1823, at age 24 in Cape Colony, South Africa.
John married Elizabeth Ann Ynes CAWOOOD (born MURRAY) on February 14 1854, at age 55 in Cuylerville.
Elizabeth was born on July 22 1808, in Ardee, Louth, Ireland.
They had one son: Joseph Edward PHILLIPPS.
His occupation was Agriculllturist, Farmer.
John passed away on January 24 1859, at age 60 in Bathurst, Eastern Cape. South Africa.

note* spelling used - PHILLIPPS and HAYHYRST - Mine: Phillips and Hayhurst.

Your thoughts ??
Kind regards.
Jen.

[phillip]

Hi Jen
We have looked at this data before regarding Goldschmidt and Phillips. As we previously discussed no one can provide confirmation regarding the Phillips/Goldschmidt. We have yet to see any records which provide proof of the Goldschmidt/Phillips association.
In addition, on the Elizabeth Phillips data there is Goldsmith/Goldsmid and not Goldschmidt. Which line are we investigating because as we know they are two separate families.
Your first posts spoke about Goldschmidt not Goldsmid and we identified Goldschmidt/Rothschild connections through marriage.

Where do you want to look next bearing in mind we have already researched the Goldschmidt/Rothschilds but could not identify any Phillips.
In contrast and repeating what we already know we have seen a Goldsmid/Phillips connection via the marriage of James Phillips.

My question to you is what surname should you really be investigating based on Elizabeth's records- is it Goldsmid or Goldschmidt and is the issue that the two surname spellings have been compromised by lack of accurate recording or reporting and if so does it matter? The answer is that it does make a significant difference because of the two families Goldsmid and Goldschmidt.

What are your thoughts on future research? We need to be very careful because with so may posts on this thread original data is getting over looked and records we have already researched are being repeated.

Did you map out the data as we discussed some time ago because this would help prevent repetition.

Phillip

[phillip]

Hi Jen
To my knowledge the Goldschmidt family did not adopt the surname Goldsmith until the 20th Century. This raises the question regarding Elizabeth Phillips middle name Goldsmith and Goldsmid. Why is there no Goldschmidt name- is it because of the loose spelling of Goldsmith/Goldsmid and if so, should it be Goldschmidt?
On another topic, there are 2 witnesses at the marriage of James Phillips to Mary Stokes in 1790. These individuals are Mary Lesley and John Phillips. We have not traced either of them and they be important in tracing your John Phillips. Similarly, we have not traced James Phillips and his previous wife.

More to consider.
Phillip

[JenBales]

Hi Phillip
Hope this finds you well 
Touching back on this . . .

Benjamin Lyon Phillips father of Coleman Lyon Phillips.
Children of Coleman Lyon Phillips Mentioned but not named

Marriage of Coleman and Frances GSM 302/15. Marriage of brother Benjamin to Hannah Aron Joseph is GSM 333/36. In 1828 the patnership dissolved between CLP, BLP and JL. Phillips, Manchester Warehousmen of 38 Minories, trading as Lyon Phillips and Sons. Then in 1838 the partnership with Benjamin Lyon Phillips of 17 John Street Crutched Friars was dissolved due to the death of CLP Gazette 19644. Lyon (Judah) Phillips was the son of Kalonymous (Rabbi). Lyon died in 1820 BSGSBur 414/3139.
???

Kind regards.
Jen.