Introduction & unusual request . . .

[JenBales]

Hello everyone - my name is Jen Phillips Bales.
My g.g.g.g. grandfather was John PHILLIPS who sailed to South Africa on the La Belle Alliance as an 1820 South African Settler. My g.g.g.g. grandmother was Sarah Elizabeth HAYHURST. My three sisters and I are therefore 7th direct descendants of 1820 Settlers.
My dad, Neville Ross PHILLIPS suddenly wanted to know more about his family tree - we didn't know very much at all, having been born and bought up in Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe)
- so I took on the project to see what I could discover. Unfortunately he passed away before I completed the task, as I have been unable to find out who John's parents were. . . am still trying!!
I have almost all the information regarding family (do you ever stop discovering??) On the ships log of the “La Belle Alliance” it says that John was 19 years old, a farmer, and came from Middlesex in England.
The piece that I have been trying to establish is whether there is any truth in that John was Jewish ??
1. 1st account: I have an old letter that came from LF Wood, who introduced himself as my Dad's cousin. In this letter he states that his mother was a Goldsmid who was a Jewess who because she married a Christian, was excommunicated !! Also that he was from a well known Banking family . .
Sounds like it all comes from a good movie!
2. JOHN PHILLIPS – 2nd account from Nicky Barber - passed this on to me:
“His father was a banker in England who eloped with a Jewess, Miss Goldschmidt. Her father worked for Rothschild’s Bank and he was a brother-in-law to one of the Rothschild’s (in other words Miss Goldschmidt’s mother was a Rothschild). Miss Goldschmidt was largely ostracized from her family for eloping AND marrying a christian. From this elopement, a son was born – JOHN PHILLIPS 2nd.
The son, also named John Phillips 2nd, came to South Africa with the Wilson’s party on the Belle Alliance with the settlers in 1820. In 1829 John Phillips 2nd, married SARAH HAYHURST, aged 26 at the time. Sarah had also come to South Africa with the 1820 Settlers with her father’s party – Richard Hayhurst.
JOHN PHILLIPS 2nd and SARAH had the following children:
1.Henry Lyons
2.Richard
3.John (3rd – my direct relation)
4.Thomas
5.Joseph
6.Mary
7.Elizabeth Goldsmid
8.Julia
9.Amelia – (lived to the age of 108!! As Mrs Payne)
3. JOHN PHILLIPS 3rd account from Kelly Haskins Germs – passed on to me:
“I hope you don't mind me contacting you regarding your family tree, PHILLIPS
John and Sarah are my ancestors through their daughter Amelia
ANY info you could share would be highly appreciated.

According to my great aunt, John was Jewish, if that helps.

Thanking you in advance,
Kelly Haskins Germs
Kind regards and thanks”

Hazel Dakers who is Head of the Jewish Society in London confirmed that this is what she could find:
“At the end of the list is J. Phillips, single man aged 20, labourer of High Holborn. All the occupations on the list may be ignored as plainly they were intended to make the applicants sound suited to the life of settlers - ready for the outdoor life and physical labour. My direct ancestor Marcus Norden is described as a gardner (in England he was a jeweller and in Grahamstown he had a general store) whilst Benjamin Norden is down for carpentry and has a wife and children, whereas he did not marry until he arrived in the Cape.”

Is there anyway I am ever going to find out ??? Any ideas most welcome!
Kind regards.

[Sue Mackay]

Hallo Jen, and a warm welcome to British Genealogy from one who is also an 1820 settler descendant! I have transcribed a lot of records to do with the settlers which can be found here.

As you have a specific query relating to Jewish genealogy, I am moving your post to the Jewish section of the forum, where it may catch the attention of someone with knowledge of Jewish records. However, our regular forum sleuths will see it in New Posts wherever it appears!

[phillip]

I have posted some data on the Aaron Goldsmid aka Goldschmidt lines on this forum as one of the lines relates through marriage to one of my Hart paternal lines- see Henry Goldsmid and Sarah Ward Ogle thread. There is significant data on line regarding Benedict Levi Goldschmidt of Hamburg and his son Aaron Goldsmid died 1782 and his two sons Abraham c1756-1810 and Benjamin c 1753-1808- see Wikipedia for some data.
In addition, I also have Phillips Jewish lines who also married into my paternal lines.
With regard to the Rothschild family this is also well documented- see Baron Ferdinand De Rothschild; Meyer De Rothschild of Frankfort, Baron Alfred C De Rothschild and his father Anselm- the lines Cohen, Beyfus, Montefiore, Worms all closely interrelate with the Rothschilds. Similarly, the Goldsmid relate through marriages to Nathaniel Montefiore,Mocatta,Gompertz among others.
I will take a closer look at the lines including wills to see if there is data that may shed light on the story.
Phillip

[phillip]

Ancestry.Com have a South African Marriage Index Record for Sarah Hayhurst and John Phillips which gives a different date of marriage as posted in#1 Sarah Hayhurst age 22 - John Phillips age 23 Married 2 Jan 1823 Albany/Grahamstown- 1 Ancestry.Com family tree has Sarah Elizabeth Hayhurst b abt 1892-1852- John Phillips c 1799-1859 Bathurst Eastern Cape.
There are Baptism records for several John Phillips but since we do not know his parents names it would be difficult to clearly identify who he was.
"Marrying out" of the Jewish faith was not common at this early date and particularly so given the Goldsmid/Rothschild families- see Cemetery Scribes Records for a range of data on the families and also Synagogue Scribes wills/ BMD records.
Phillip

[phillip]

There is an interesting paper online "Nathan Mayer Rothschild and Brazil: the role of Samuel Phillips and Co" R J Barman. In this paper reference is made to the marriage of Abraham aka Alfred Phillips to his cousin Rebecca Samuel and the development of the Brazilian and South American business relationship between the Samuel, Phillips and Rothschild. This relationship gives no reference to any more personal links such as marriage/elopment etc between the Phillips, Samuel and Rothschild but it is interesting to see the Phillips surname linked to Rothschilds. However, all these families were Jewish.
I will check up on Rothschilds/Goldsmid relationships.
Phillip

[phillip]

I have taken a long look at the several Goldsmid/Goldschmidt and Rothschild family trees on line. There is one Goldschmidt/Rothschilds marriage: Moses Amschel Rothschilds d 1794- his daughter Adelheid aka Edel 1777-1834 married Jacob Goldschmidt 1783-1847 and there were children but all are accounted for in marriages and the early lines are Germany/Austria.
See online- Jewish Encyclopaedia 1906 -Rothschilds J Jacobs et al plus the Wikipedia references plus family trees online.
There maybe illegitimate children but these are not listed in the lines. The children of Benjamin Goldsmid 1753-1808 -Jesse Salomons 1762-1836 - Hester age 14; Henry aged 21; Mary Ann aged 16 were baptised at St.Giles Southwark Camberwell in 1812. I do not know why and Hester and Mary Ann married gentiles.
I cannot locate any definite London or UK link between the Goldsmid/Goldschmidt -Rothschilds but that is not to say there is not but it maybe not recorded. The known lines of these families are all traceable and Phillips surname does not feature in the genealogy records for them.
Phillip

[JenBales]

Hello Sue
Thank you so much for your quick response! Much appreciated. Great to be talking to another 1820 Settler descendant
I forgot to mention in my intro that two of John & Sarah's children have the names:
Henry LYONS Phillips and Elizabeth GOLDSMID Phillips . . .
Rather Jewish sounding??
Kind regards

[JenBales]

Hello Phillip
Thank you for your prompt reply!
Would be wonderful to be able to conclude my family tree with certainty of fact
I appreciate your impute.
Kind regards.

[JenBales]

Hi Philip
In the letter from my dad's cousin LF Wood, he does state that John Phillips, father of 2nd John Phillips was an illegitimate child. .
Unfortunately LF Wood passed away in 1987 - so there is no way of finding out where he got this information from!
Kind regards.

[phillip]

Happy to help. You are right about the Lyons/Goldsmid middle names sounding Jewish and there maybe a clue in this to establishing more certainty about John Phillips. I have Phillips/ Lyons/Goldsmid/Samuel/Hart and numerous other Anglo Jewish lines. I also have South African and Zimbawbe links through my Jewish great grandfather who left his wife and daughter my grandmother in London and ran away to SA with his non Jewish mistress. He started a second family who knew nothing about his Jewish line or that he was married! I only made contact with this SA line a few years ago.
I say all of this because there are going to be clues to help you solve this puzzle but this will require digging deeper.
I will look further.
Phillip