Introduction & unusual request . . .

[phillip]

If you look on Synagogue Scribes- Great Synagogue Offertory Book ( GSOFa)-Henry Roche you will see 2 records- Benjamin Lyon Phillips father Zeeb plus other related records; Joshua Lyon Phillips father Isaiah plus related records. You will also see on Cemetery Scribes Joshua Lyon Phillips ID 1287 =Elizabeth Harris and on JewishGen UK Data base Insurance Policies- Benjamin Lyon Phillips Manchester warehousemen 38 Minories with joint policies linking Joshua Lyon Phillips and Coleman Lyon Phillips plus Joshua Lyon Phillips victualler French Alley Paternoster Row Spitalfields 1822-23 jointly with Benjamin and Coleman.

What I can't see are any records which link these lines to the James Phillips widower=Mary Stokes marriage 1790 or to John Phillips b circa 1798- the above are all Jewish whereas your John Phillips and the James Phillips who married in 1790 are not.

Where to look next?
Phillip

[JenBales]

Good morning Phillip
I found this about half an hour ago!!
Elizabeth Goldsmid

Historical records and family trees related to Elizabeth Goldsmid.
Records may include photos, original documents, family history, relatives, specific dates, locations and full names.

•MyHeritage Family Trees
•Geni World Family Tree
•1861 England & Wales Census
•1881 England & Wales Census
•1940 United States Federal Census
•1851 England & Wales Census


Elizabeth Anne Phillips (born Goldsmid) was baptized on February 4 1776, in Parish All Saints, Edmonton, County: Middelsex Borough: Enfield , England.

Elizabeth married John Phillips Snr. SV/PROG No.1.
John was born in 1775.

They had one son: John (1820 South African Settler) Phillips Snr. SV/PROG.
Elizabeth passed away.

Is this it ????!!!
Kind regards.
Jen.

[phillip]

You referred some time ago to your original notes regarding the Elizabeth Ann Goldsmid who was supposed to have married John Phillips and then their son John b circa 1798.

The Baptism date for Elizabeth is specific but I cannot locate the record on the Ancestry.Co London Baptism records for the period nor can I find a marriage- I looked at numerous records some while back.

The problem remains- where did the person who recorded the 1776 date for Elizabeth get the original data from and where are the records for a marriage and a birth of a son John.

You can't base accurate research on data which is not confirmed and that is the key problem throughout all this thread.

If anyone else can re-check the Baptism records for Elizabeth Ann Goldsmid 1776 Edmonton that would be a help just in case I have missed the record. Similarly, the same for a marriage between a Elizabeth Ann Goldsmid=John Phillips and then the birth of a John Phillips circa 1798 with parents John Phillips/Elizabeth Goldsmid.

Phillip

[JenBales]

Hi Philip
I have two last possibilities...
This is from Anchestry.com
John Phillips
Age 0: b. 16 Oct 1798. Holborn, London, Middlesex, England.
d. 24.01.1859. Bathurst, Eastern Cape, South Africa.
Age 1 - Baptism
26 April 1800. St Andrew Holborn Above The Bars And St George The Martyr
Age 14 - Birth of Half-Sister Sarah B Phillips (1813 -)
abt 1813. Wotton Under Edge, Gloucestershire, England.
Age 24 - Marriage
02 Jan 1823. Eastern Cape, South Africa
. . . the rest we know
Source: Ancestry Family Trees.

2nd one: RICHARD MOULTRIE SITE, Ancestry.com
John Phillips
Age 0: 29 Mar 1800. Westminster, London, England.
Age 0: baptism
26 April 1800. St James, Westminster, Middlesex, England.
Age 22 - Marriage
Sarah Elizabeth Hayhurst 02 Jan 1823, Grahamstown, Eastern Cape, South Africa.
. . . the rest we know
Sources:
England & Wales Christening Records, 1530-1906
England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975 (Father: John Phillips. Mother: Ann FHL Film Number: 1042309)
South Africa, Marriage Index, 1807-2007

JOHN PHILLIPS FATHER:
b. abt. 1780. Kingswood, Gloucestershire, England.
d. unknown
Age: 32 - birth of daughter Sarah B Phillips (1813 -) Wotton Under Edge, Gloucestershire, England
Age 71: Residence
1851. Wotton under Edge, Gloucestershire, England
Relationship: Head
Ancestry Source:
1851 England Census.

ANN PHILLIPS MOTHER:
b. abt. 1776. Chippenham, Wiltshire, England
d. unknown
Age: 22 b. of son John Phillips (1798-1859)
Age 36 - birth of daughter Sarah B Phillips (1813 -)
Age: 83 - d. of son John Phillips (1798-1859) 24.01.1859 Bathurst, Eastern Cape, South Africa.
Anchestry sources
1851 England Census
Anchestry Family Trees.

In the 1841 England Census Ann was aged 65 b. Wiltshre, England. Civil Parish New Sarum. Reg. district: Salisbury.
Household member: Richard Phillips age 65
Ann Phillips age 65
?????????

Almost ready to give up again!! I really do appreciate your help and input . . .
Kind regards.
Jen.

[phillip]

The key problem all along with the research has been to find a record which confirms the parents of John Phillips the 1820 SA Settler.
If you look at the Ancestry.Com family trees I can see no proof that John Phillips was born 16 Oct 1798 Holborn- the same 2nd tree by the same researcher also has birth 16 Dec 1798.
Similarly, the John Phillips b 29 March 1800 and baptised 26 April 1800 with parents John and Ann.
The SA Marriage for John =Sarah Bathurst in 1823 gives John a dob circa 1800.

Have you looked at the 2 main Ancestry.Com sources- London Church of England Baptisms,Marriages and Burials 1538-1812 and England, Select Births and Christenings 1538-1975?

If not, can I suggest you double check the data in the Ancestry.Com family trees because currently I can't see how the researchers can prove that John Phillips born 16 Oct or 16 Dec 1798 or Sept 1799 or March 1800 is the same John Phillips who married Sarah Bathurst. Perhaps they have evidence not cited but I am not convinced.

Let's re-check to make sure.
Having said all of this where is the Goldsmid and Lyon name link beyond the possible James and John Phillips in the 1790 marriage record. This seems to me at least a possible link when compared to some of the spurious data on family trees.

Phillip

[phillip]

Another thought has crossed my mind regarding John Phillips. If he is the same person as per the Norden group and a Jew then we are not going to find his birth in any Church of England or non Jewish records.
Is the 1798 date a circumcision record rather than a Baptism or Christening?
I don't like to speculate in family history and this is a suggestion. At present I can't locate a Christian record for John as per the 1798 date so where did it come from and currently no one has given the source.
The Jewish line would come through his mother if his father was a gentile according to your original notes on the line where you spoke about Phillips/Goldsmid/Rothschild links but his father being a non Jew.

However, why did the John Phillips become a prominent Protestant supporter- you have already speculated that this maybe through his father.

Let's keep options open and look for a specific 1798 date as per the Ancestry.Com family trees but also look for Jewish records but this is significantly harder.

Phillip

[phillip]

Some further areas for consideration- See Familysearch.England Jewish Records (National Institute).."The Jews recorded births, although sometimes rather casually and some parents had them entered in Anglican registers, for a fee, without ceremonies being performed, just to ensure a legal record......Circumcision records were the property of the community surgeon ( mohel) rather than a local synagogue".
I have never seen any of my Anglo Jewish lines Ashkenazi circumcision records but that is not to say they don't exist.
In addition, even as late as the 1860s my great grandfather did not have a GRO Birth record but fortunately his name and that of his sister's births were recorded in the Jewish Chronicle with parents names/address.

In the case of my 4x great grandfather Henry Hart his Hebrew name is Tsebi Hirsh b Baruch b Jacob Tsebi.

This can mean that John is an Anglicised name as per John Phillips and John if a Jew may have another Hebrew name in records. For example my 3x great father John Hart was Jacob.

My thinking is don't give up on the searches and maybe look more closely at the Jewish John Phillips in the Norden group.

Phillip

[JenBales]

Hi Phillip
Firstly, thank you for the encouragement to continue.

For 10 years I have looked … and looked! I have a membership with almost every genealogy site – and still no joy!! I have been extremely lucky to have had a few people, like yourself, helping me with my quest. I have been spending a lot of time on Ancestry .com and also mygenealogist.co.uk … I did find these two rather strange things!
You mentioned a surgeon (mohel):
In thegenealogist.co.uk site :
1. “On the Twenty second Day of the Fourth Month, called April . . . One Thousand Seven Hundred and Ninety six . . . was born in Castle Green in the Castle Precienct in the City Of Bristol . . . unto John Phillips . . . Taylor … and Ann . . . his Wife, a Son . . . Who was named Benjamin Mullett.
We who are present at the faid birth have subscribed our Names as Witnesses thereof:
John Newman (or Norman ??) Surgeon
Betty Mullet
Anna Mullet
2. On the twenty third Day of the ninth Month, called September One Thousand seven Hundred and ninety two, was born in Newfoundland Street in the Parith of Pauls, in the county of Bristol . . . unto John Phillips, Taylor and Ann his Wife, a Daughter whom is named Ann . . .
We, who were present at the faid Birth, have subscribed our Names as witnesses thereof:
John Newman (could be Norman ??) Surgeon
Ann Lawrence
Philippa Newman (could be Norman ??)
A true Copy, In Bonwell.

Then there is this one:
Type: Baptism
TNA ref: RG8/Piece 60
Register of Births and Baptisms in the British Lying-In Hospital in Endell Street, St Giles in the Fields, Holborn, Middlesex from 1798 to 1819
Date: 29th March, 1798
Description: Hospital record of Child birth
Date of Birth: 22nd March, 1798
Parish of Abode: St Martin
Reg of Town/County: Holborn, Middlesex
Fathers name: John Phillips
Profession: Taylor
Mothers name: Elizabeth Phillips.

Lastly . . . in the genealogist site again, almost looks like a receipt!
THESE ARE TO CERTIFY that . . .
Mary Phillips, daughter of John Phillips and Ann his wife, b. in the Parish of North Bradly in the county of Wilts on 18 September 1787
John Phillips, son of John & wife Ann b. 29 March, 1789
James Phillips son of John & wife Ann b. 30 April 1793
Ann Phillips, daughter of John & wife Ann 30 September 1797
All of the above registered by B Wilkins.

On a different note, I came across this site – barrow-lousada.org
Descendants of Israel. I recognised a lot of the names as your ancestors. Thought you may like to see it  
Kind regards. Jen.

[phillip]

First of all my thanks for citing the barrow-lousada site. It's always useful to look at wider family connections.
With regard to the John Phillips 1798 record in your last post with father a tailor- this is a record we spoke about some time ago and the High Holborn reference was of particular interest in connection with the John Phillips of High Holborn as per the Norden list pre 1820.
We couldn't find a link because of lack of further records and this record appeared to be non Jewish.

I would like to find more about the 2 Phillips in the 1790 Phillips/Stokes marriage but where to look??
I think this is the most probable Goldsmid name connection if John Phillips your ancestor was not a Jew.

Another key point which causes problems is the damage or destruction of London Synagogues in WW2 ( there were many others in the UK) - see JewishGen -JCR-UK site UK Synagogues destroyed or damaged by German Air Raids during World War 2. David Shulman 7 Jan 2108.

Numerous records were destroyed. We still don't know whether or not John Phillips of your line was a Jew or not. I am tending towards not but proof is needed.

Where to go next with the 2 Phillips in 1790 with Benjamin Goldsmid??

Phillip

[JenBales]

Hello Philip
I wrote you a nice update . . . and the power cut and I lost it all !!! Grrrrrrrrr. . .
So will try again:
I have spent a while sending emails to anyone connect to the Phillips name through my tree, asking for any hint of info regarding John Phillip's family in England. I got quite a few replies, but most of the information I already had.
There were 2 however, that may or may not lead to anything:
From Ness: John SAMUEL Phillips b. Dec 16 1798
Occupation: Agriculturist
Census:1871, Euston Square, St Pancras, London, Middlesex, England.
Death Jan 24 1859 - Bathurst, Cape, South Africa.
Wife: Ann Ynes Phillips (1st husband John Cawood)(born Murray) 1808 - 1876
Census # on schedule - 12
Street # 54 Euston Square.
John Samuel Phillips - Head - 72
Anne Phillips - wife 64
Law Stationer
Born: St Clements Lanes, London.
Liberty of the Rolls, London (what ever that means ??)
I am sending this in parts!