Introduction & unusual request . . .

[phillip]

Have looked at all wills for James Phillips and John Phillips from 1808-1858- these are the full wills and not extracts post 1858.
There is a John Phillips farmer Cowslip Lane Tottenham High Cross Middx with wife Elizabeth and eldest son John. There are other children Mary, Roberta?, Daniel and John Snr has brothers Michael and William and a cousin Edward Phillips. John the eldest son is not yet 21 years and the other children are under 21.
John Phillips snr will is dated 11 Oct 1821. He left a lot of money and land.
The question is this- is John Phillips farmer who went to SA in 1820 his son. If so, why would he not return if his bequest left him the land?
There is another John Phillips who died 1840 and left a farm to his son John but no mention of SA.

Long shots again. I can't at present see any family tree or other data for the John Phillips farmer died 1821 but will look further. There are James Phillips with wife Mary but no reference to a son John.
However, I have only looked at the John/James Phillips in the London and Middlesex areas and there maybe ones in other localities I have yet to look at.
Will continue looking.
Phillip

[phillip]

John Phillips of Tottenham appears to have been a Quaker and aged 60 when he died. There is a Quaker burial record for him. Not sure if he can be the John Phillips father of John the SA settler because this John was a Protestant as the records indicate. I have read a range of records on the Cawood and Whitfield- no Jewish links that I can see. Have also read the Death Record for John Phillips which records his age, place of birth as London Middx but no parents listed but his 9 children are.
Doesn't get us closer to locating John Phillips parents and his roots but at least whittling down potential individuals.
Phillip

[JenBales]

Hello Philip
I came across this from www.bmdregisters.co.uk:
Phillips James 1801 Baptism Northamptonshire RG4 1271 ???
I am away for the next 7 days so will check in on my return.
Thanking you again for your kind assistance

[phillip]

I have read the transcriptions of the original letters from the 1820 South Africa Settlers and there are questions regarding J Phillips as per your #1. The 1820 Settler Correspondence edited by Sue Mackay has the name P PILLIPS 20 Laborer single man High Holborn in the party of Abraham Norden in his letter dated 24 August 1819.
As you say in your original post this Norden party were all Jews. John Phillips joined the Willson party as you also said and a later record shows him to be age 20 farmer from London Middlesex.
My questions are these:
Did Sue Mackay make an error transcribing the original name of John Phillips and if not, are P PILLIPS age 20 laborer and John Phillips farmer one in the same?
If John Phillips aka P Pillips are one in the same did this individual change his name and religion so that it made him easier to join the 1820 Settler Party?
Is John Phillips a completely different person to the P Pillips in the original Abraham Norden party if so, what happened to him?
I can't see any later reference to John Phillips in the Selected Settler Correspondence 1820-1837 but Sue Mackay states that it has not all been transcribed.
The baptism and birth of a John Phillips 22 March 1798 Holborn British Lying in Hospital record has his parents John Phillips occupation Taylor and his wife Elizabeth age 20.
There are other 1798 records for the baptism in Middlesex for John Phillips- 2 with father John Phillips-The Non Conformist and Non Parochial Registers .

However, I am interested in the P Pillips age 20 in the Norden party not least because of the John Phillips naming of his two children Elizabeth Goldsmid and Henry Lyons. Importantly, I have read the original baptism records for the two children 27 Oct 1842 and note that Henry's middle name is LYALL and Elizabeth is GOLDSMID. However, later records show Henry had LYONS as his middle name.
What the data suggests is a closer look at the original records particularly the Pillips and Phillips.
If John is actually a P ( first name not recorded in the original letter) then we are looking at a different individual and potentially a Jew.
If they are one in the same then as I said earlier did P change his name/religion.
More to consider.
Phillip

[phillip]

Looking at the Ancestry.Com family tree data on John Phillips and also on family trees on other sites the key issues are these:
1 Some trees have a precise dob for John 16 Oct 1798
2 Some trees have him Christened Sept 1797
3 Some trees have him born 1799
The names of John and Elizabeth have been given in some trees as John's parents.
The crucial problem regarding the above variations in data is that none have produced evidence to confirm the sources.
I have checked records of baptisms and births for various John Phillips and can see none which confirm 16 Oct 1798 but a further check would be useful just in case I have missed data.
I have also looked on Synagogue Scribes births for male Phillips but can see no data for 1798 +-2 years. If John Phillips mother was a Jew then he also is a Jew because of the matrilineal line.
So far, there is too little evidence to tie John Phillips in with any named parents or dob.
A key question is why was P Pillips labourer on the Abraham Norden original 1819 list- who exactly was this individual? Was he accepted/rejected?
I think a review of original Kew records might resolve possible queries providing data exists regarding P Pillips and also the later John Phillips.
Phillip

[Sue Mackay]

Did Sue Mackay make an error transcribing the original name of John Phillips and if not, are P PILLIPS age 20 laborer and John Phillips farmer one in the same?

I have looked at the original again and it definitely appears to be PILLIPS without the H. When I transcribed the settler correspondence I preserved the original spelling (despite the best efforts of the Microsoft spellchecker and it was often quite colourful. As regards the first initial, it looks to me like the P of PILLIPS, but there might be a case for J. If you want to see the original send me a PM with your e-mail.

[phillip]

Many thanks Sue on behalf of Jen. I am merely helping her out where possible. I have no links to the 1820 SA settlers. I gather Jen is away this week and on her return she should contact you. Do you have any other data on John Phillips the farmer and 1820 settler which might shed light on whether or not he was also P possibly J Pillips to help Jen.
Phillip

[phillip]

Jen
I had forgotten the posts I had made some 4 years ago relating to Abraham Norton aka Norden and his son Louis Norton who became a solicitor- see thread Louis Norton 1798-1853-Solicitor on this forum. You will also see the posts Sue Mackay made in relation to the 1820 South Africa settlers- see also the online site headed Hazel Daker's Family History. You will note from the posts that my Jacobs lines relate to the Abraham Norton aka Norden lines through Louis Norton solicitor.
It would prove interesting to see if there are Jewish Phillips/Norden/ Norton links.
Phillip

[Sue Mackay]

The thread Phillip is referring to is here

https://www.british-genealogy.com/th...853-SOLICITOR?

[JenBales]

Hello Philip.
I am back home again . .
I spent some time this morning re-reading some notes that a cousin of my Dad's - Basil Phillips, son of Patrick and Valerie May - sent to me.
He said that his mother had told him that he was to be named James to perpetuate a family tradition; and that Wildermere might have been another family name. My g. grandfather's name was James Henry Wildermere Phillips.
Might be possible that John 1820 was infact James ??
John 1820 married widow Ann Ynes Cawood after Sarah died and they had a son named Joseph Edward - so could be Joseph ??
Kind regards.
Jen.