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  1. #321
    Loves to help with queries
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    Hi Phillip
    Just to clarify, there was another James PHILLIPS that came out to SA with his family as 1820 Settlers:
    James Phillips [5, 6, 7]
    Birth 26 May 1818 London, England Find all individuals with events at this location [8]
    Baptism 28 Jun 1818 England Find all individuals with events at this location [6, 8]
    Born 1819 England Find all individuals with events at this location [2]
    Gender Male
    1820 Settler 13 Dec 1819 Gravesend, Kent, England Find all individuals with events at this location
    Address:
    Morgan's party on the Ocean
    Death 8 Oct 1893 Tarkastad, Eastern Cape, South Africa Find all individuals with events at this location [8]
    1820 Lineage Yes
    Settler ID 631
    Name James Phillips 1820
    Occupation a Farmer [2]
    Died 8 Oct 1893 Tarkastad, Eastern Cape, South Africa Find all individuals with events at this location [3]
    Person ID I14925 master
    Parents: George & Ann Phillips.

    As he was only 1 yrs old, he was not the letter writer!
    Kind regards.
    Jen.

  2. #322

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    Can I just remind everyone that copying and pasting information from other sites is not allowed. You can type it yourself but NOT copy and paste. The format and wording used is what is copyright to the other site. The actual information is in public domain so type it yourself or don't share it people LOL
    Sadly, our dear friend Ann (alias Ladkyis) passed away on Thursday, 26th. December, 2019.
    Footprints on the sands of time

  3. #323

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    Hi Jen
    I have been trying to make sense of the 2 original family stories in #1 of this thread. The first account by L F Wood talks about John Phillips mother being a Goldsmid and marrying a Christian and that she was from a well known banking family. The second account by Nicky Barber talks about the Goldschmidt/Rothschild connection.
    I have looked at the Goldschmidt/Rothschild links and we know that there was a marriage between Gutle Rothschild 1755-1812
    (daughter of Amschel Moses Rothschild b c 1710-1755=Schonche Lechnich. This Gutle married Salomon Daniel Goldschmidt.
    There are Ancestry private family trees on the line but I do not know currently if there were any children from the marriage and if so, did one of them a daughter have an illegitimate son namely your John Phillips.
    I have looked at all the other children of Amschel Moses Rothschild and the descendants of these children but so far am aware of only a later marriage in 1870 between Rothschild and Goldschmidt- Maximilian von Goldschmidt 1843-1940=Minna Carolina Rothschild 1857-1903.

    In particular, I have seen Leopold Goldschmidt 1845-1917 and Jacob aka James Rothschild 1792-1868.

    What is also important is that in the research article Fraternity and endogamy.The House of Rothschild.Adam Kuper Social Anthropology 2007 (see online article) the family of Mayer Amschel Rothschild marriages are well documented. By 1824 the children of Mayer agreed to inter marry with 1st cousins and other very close family relations. This was essentially to keep the family finances within the family. Kuper provides significant data on who the Mayer children married and their children's marriages.Kuper wrote that
    "When Nathan Rothschild's second daughter Hannah Mayer married a Christian Henry Fitzroy in 1839, she was effectively ostracised by the family... The first marriage by a male Rothschild to a non-Jewish woman occurred in the fifth generation...1957"

    I am also aware of the Frankfurt laws in the 18th C which prohibited Jewish marriages to Christians and vice versa and the Goldschmidt and Rothschild were in Frankfurt during this period both earlier than the 1700s and later.

    However, what we have with the 2 family accounts in #1 are 2 possible separate Jewish lines- one Goldsmid and the other Goldschmidt. There is no agreement between L F Wood and Nicky Barber which is the correct family surname. This is crucial because we need to know which is correct.
    Based only on 1 record we know that a James Phillips married a Mary Stokes and Benjamin Goldsmid and his sister Hester were present. This Goldsmid line like the Rothschild are very well know bankers but they are not the same line as married into the Rothschild. This is the problem over and over again- we just don't know if there is any remote connection between James Phillips and the John Phillips with Benjamin Goldsmid.

    Given that at present we don't know who the children of Gutle Rothschild and Salomon Daniel Goldschmidt were there is a possibiilty that one of their daughters had a relationship with a John Phillips resulting in your John Phillips. However, this may be totally bogus until we have more data.

    In the case of the Goldsmid line I am unaware of issues regarding the marriage of Christian to Jewish Goldsmid. Indeed from memory I think that Benjamin's children did marry non Jews in contrast to the later Rothschild.If so, this would not have been an issue.

    What are your thoughts again?

    Phillip
    Phillip-Jewish,British Ancestry

    "The only true dead are those who have been forgotten"

  4. #324
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    Hi Phillip
    Hope this finds you and yours well 
    LLF Wood definitely wrote Miss Goldshmidt.
    In almost every other written subject she has the name Goldsmith – except for this time - and I have a copy of: Bapt by James Barrow, Colonial Chaplain.
    Nov 27 (#287) bapt at Cuylerville a daughter of John and Sarah Phillips of Fish River Mouth by the name of Elizabeth Goldsmid
    So . . . . . .almost a case of “eni meani minei mo” 
    I have a copy of a page in an old book which has “Baptized Anno – 1775”
    Bapt May 1, 1775
    ANN- daughter of Charles and Elizabeth GOLDSMITH Born April 10th 1775
    (This would be about the right date for my John’s mother ??)
    Then I have these 2 copies:
    Baptisms in the Parish of Saint Pancras, in the County of Middlesex – 1831 – page 246
    June 15th (#957) Samuel James, parents John Samuel & Ann Phillips, Calthorpe Street, Stationer. (does not give a b. date)
    Baptisms in the Parish of Saint Pancras, in the County of Middlesex – 1834 – page 05
    June 10th (#959) Sarah, parents John Samuel & Ann Phillips, 23 Calthorpe Street, Law Stationer, born 21 May, 1834
    Could these be my John’s siblings ??
    Here is something interesting!
    Henry LYONS Phillips married Johanna FITZROY
    GT, King Williams Town, Holy Trinity Anglican Marriages 1850-1876
    Kingwilliamstown, Eastern Cape, South Africa.
    Nov 9 1858
    She died Oct 16 1901 - East London, Amatole, Eastern Cape, South Africa.
    Honestly, do you think we will ever find them ???
    Have a good day!
    Kind regards.
    Jen.

  5. #325

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    Hi Jen
    Did Elizabeth Phillips ever sign her middle name as Goldsmid? If we are looking only at Goldsmith that raises questions about the Wood and Barber reference to the Goldsmid/Goldschmidt/Rothschild story. Where did they get the story from? We already know that Henry Lyons Phillips did not know the names of his father's parents and we can only speculate the reason.

    Not one person has come up with any proof regarding the Goldsmid/Goldschmidt/Rothschild story and that has limited us significantly in the searches.

    It is an odd story to come up with but there have been stranger. Similarly, we have no written precise dob of birth for John Phillips beyond his death certificate which gave years and months but not an actual date/month. Nor do we know precisely where he was born. In short, we are still chasing around looking for any relevant data.

    I would not give up. You never know who may read our posts in the future and come up with relevant data.

    Phillip
    Phillip-Jewish,British Ancestry

    "The only true dead are those who have been forgotten"

  6. #326

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    Hi Jen
    Forgot to ask- who were the parents of Joanna Fitzroy? Looking at the names of John Phillips children we can see some naming pattern after grandparents but it may not be consistent. You have John, Henry,Thomas etc. Does this give any clue to the father of John Phillips- John or Henry?

    Phillip
    Phillip-Jewish,British Ancestry

    "The only true dead are those who have been forgotten"

  7. #327

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    Hi Jen
    I have been looking at the husbands of Elizabeth Goldsmid Phillips and noted George Chappell Hyam b 1836 Croscombe Somerset. Looking further I saw that there was a Rootschat Look up request for Somerset Topic Steven Chappell-1794 Friday 6 Feb 2009.
    This rootschat posts were trying to sort out the Chapell Hyam line from Somerset and importantly I noted that one of the researchers thought that Elizabeth Chappell Hyam had married a JOHN PHILLIPS 21 Nov 1811 Croscombe. However, there was nothing in the messages to confirm why the researcher had identified this marriage nor could I see any proof that it was correct.

    I have not looked any further and am just flagging up this link because of the John Phillips name. It may be an error but why Phillips and Chappell Hyam pre the marriage of Elizabeth Goldsmid Phillips to George Chappell Hyam.

    You may want to look closely at the messages. The marriage date of 21 Nov 1811 for John Phillips is very interesting- where did this researcher get the date from and where is the record?

    Have a close look and let me know what you make of the posts.

    Phillip
    Phillip-Jewish,British Ancestry

    "The only true dead are those who have been forgotten"

  8. #328
    Loves to help with queries
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    Hi Phillip
    I was about to send you some info and just read your previous message. Will come back to you on this
    Kind regards Jen.

  9. #329
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    Good morning Phillip
    On reading your last post, I must say I thought “”What the heck!” and suddenly got the feeling that we were never going to find them! Was deciding to give up!
    Shortly after, I got an email from A. Ferramosca “I have 9% Jewish Diaspora. As far as I was aware I have no Jewish ancestors at all. So maybe that comes from Goldsmith side??” We are related through Elizabeth Goldsmith Phillips side.
    He is helping me by seeing what spelling of the middle name Elizabeth used.
    I then took another look at my mtDNA and it shows: (not certain how it works – but ..)
    Germany 23 7963 0.3%
    United States 22 9260 0.2%
    Norway 16 2587 0.6%
    Sweden 16 6285 0.3%
    Ireland 12 6962 0.2%
    England 11 9110 0.1% Bohemia (1)
    Poland 8 2870 0.3%
    United Kingdom 8 3001 0.3%
    Ukraine 5 1278 0.4% Ashkenazi (3)
    Not sure what Bohemia and Ashkenazi means. Could this be Jewish?
    I have asked family Tree DNA to do a “Family Finder” for me and I should get these results towards the end of June. Could be interesting!
    Now, I was told by a local genealogist that there are ways of checking dates using a time and date calculator. He checked it for me – and then I checked it as well and got the same. On John’s DN it says he was 61 yrs and 4 mths old, date of death 24th January, 1859.
    He was definitely born Sept 1797.
    I also started thinking that it appears that I have a lot of unknown family relations in the USA . . . and on checking, there are a lot of Phillips that emigrated from England by ship.
    What if one of them knows something - so I decided on the off chance to approach a genealogist on a paying site and asked him after a brief explanation to see if he could find anything.
    This is what he emailed me:

    Hello there,
    There is only one John Phillips noted in English baptism records September 1797
    John Phillips
    England Births and Christenings
    Name John Phillips
    Gender Male
    Christening Date 29 Sep 1797
    Christening Date (Original) 29 SEP 1797
    Christening Place CHIEVELEY,BERKSHIRE,ENGLAND
    Father's Name Thomas Phillips
    Mother's Name Elizabeth

    I then asked him to see if he could find a surname for Elizabeth. He sent me this:
    Hi Jen
    Please see attached for parents marriage. Family tree and baptism records are on
    www. familysearch/org - there were 12 children
    • 00753154-a1d0-43f8-a7ce-ce7af21855c4_John Phillips 1797–Deceased Landscape View Family Tree
    THOMAS PHILLIPS b. 1770 deceased
    ELIZABETH BRAZIER b. 1770-1851 (*laughing at the surname*)
    There is a John Phillips b. 1797 – deceased.
    Your comments and thoughts again would be much appreciated
    Kind regards.
    Jen.

  10. #330
    Super Moderator - Completely bonkers and will never change.
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    Can't stop as I'm supposed to be in the shower prior to going out, but there is a John Phillips marrying Hannah Green in Chieveley 17 October 1824.
    Children Isaac 1826, Sarah 1828, and Thomas 1830, all baptised Compton (Berkshire).
    Family living in Compton in 1841.
    John Phillips, says born 1801 in Chieveley, living on a farm with no family members in Compton in 1851. HO107/1689 folio 402 page 2
    Haven't time to search for the other family members.

    Jen - just because someone's age at death is given as precisely as x number of years y number of months it doesn't mean it's accurate/true. There's many a tale been told on the forum of people born in the early 1900s who've told family members they were born on a certain date and when their grandchildren have sent for the birth certificate the date has differed. An uncle who married into my family even told me me the wrong birth year for his father. So birth dates/years prior to at least 1800 should always be regarded as a guide, not a cast-in-stone fact.

    Pam
    Vulcan XH558 - “Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.”

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