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  1. #281
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    Hi Jen
    You have Elizabeth Goldsmid Phillips b 1834 in your last post. Is the Goldsmid her actual middle name and if so, why does it become Goldsmith? Why did John/Sarah adopt Charles William Kent?

    I would like to rule in or out the Goldsmid name.
    Phillip

  2. #282
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    Hi Phillip,

    Charles Kent was adopted by John & Sarah. His parents were James Kent and Ellen, born Williamson. His siblings were: Richard John, Charlotte, Johan and Susanna Maria Magdalena.
    Their parents were killed, so John & Sarah adopted Charles.

    I wrote the name Elizabeth GOLDSMITH Phillips to you yesterday, because due to her Borain marriage her name is listed by that family as Goldsmith and not Goldsmid.

    Elizabeth Goldsmid Phillips b. 9 Dec 1824, bapt 27 Nov 1842 by Rev James Barrow at Cuylerville (Entry 287).

    Note in this info: Henry Lyall b. 6 Oct 1827 Fish River Mouth, bapt 27 Nov 1842 by Rev James Barrow at Cuylerville (Entry 290). But he signs his name as LYONS.

    But in one son, Joseph Borain’s tree, he has Elizabeth GOLDSMID as his mother.
    Joseph, Edward Borain was born on May 8 1867, in Pietermaritzburg, Indlovu DC, KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa, to Valentine Borain and Elizabeth, Goldsmid Phillips.

    Will look into it more. .
    Kind regards
    Jen.

  3. #283
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    Hi Jen
    Have you seen the original birth and baptism records for Elizabeth and Henry to confirm the accuracy of the spellings of the middle names. If they are Lyall and Goldsmith rather than Goldsmid and Lyons that opens up a wide range of possibilities regarding the origins/parents of John Phillips. If Henry signed his middle name Lyons rather than Lyall what was the reason? Did the vicar record names incorrectly and if so, why didn't the parents check the accuracy? Did the spelling of middle names not matter- I doubt this but you never know. Middle names can reflect original family names as we know so confirmation of what the spelling was is important in identifying John Phillips.

    Interesting that no one in the Phillips et al families knew the names of John's parents not even his son Henry. Why was this?

    Phillip

  4. #284
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    Hi Phillip
    Just to let you know that I am trying to get a copy of the original birth and baptism records for Elizabeth and Henry. As soon as I have anything, I will come back to you.
    I was looking at all the second names of John & Sarah's children:
    1.Henry Lyons
    2.Richard Hayhurst
    3.John ? (3rd – my direct relation)
    4.Thomas Leopold
    5.Joseph Edward
    6.Mary Dodgson
    7.Elizabeth Goldsmid/Goldsmith
    8.Julia Sarah
    9.Amelia Ann – (lived to the age of 108!! As Mrs Payne)

    Strange that John Phillips and his son John Phillips have not 2nd name!!
    Kind regards.
    Jen.

  5. #285
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    Hi Phillip
    I have been trying to get to the bottom of Elizabeth Goldsmith/Goldsmid name. When she was baptisted her name is noted as Goldsmith. When she got married at a young age (14 !!!) the wedding is noted in the Grahamstown Journal 7th Sat Feb 1846
    "Married on Wed 14th inst in St Augustin's Church by Rev. G Cocoran, Patrick Howard to Elizabeth Goldsmith Phillips, second daughter of John Phillips of Fish River Mouth".
    BUT in South Arica, Church of Province of South Africa Parish registers, 1801-2004 when she was baptised at Cuylerville on November 27th by James Barrow, her name is Elizabeth Goldsmid b.9th December, 1824 (#287 in the journal)
    Henry Lyons is only noted once as Lyll - and all other times as Lyon or Lyons.
    I was looking in the copy of the Great Synagogue Offertory Book (GSOFa) that I found online.
    This is the first time that I have come across Phillips and Lyon together:
    PHILLIPS Benjamin Lyon, his brother Joshua Lyon (Census 1841 Sun St, Bishopsgate) and Colman Lyon. Interesting ??
    And lastly this is interesting! On a site on myheritage that belongs to Helshtein-jacobson-Isaacs Family Tree I found my g.g. grandfather noted:
    John (2nd son) 1820 Settler, Fish River Mouth, Eastern Cape, married Jane Wood.
    Census: 1881 Woodmancote, Defford, St Andrew Pershore, Worcestershire, England - could this be the break we have been looking for?? I have sent a message to their site asking to become a member of their site.
    Kind regards.
    Jen.

  6. #286
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    Hi Phillip
    Forgot to mention that on his DN, Henry is named Henry LYON Phillips.
    Jen.

  7. #287
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    Hi Jen
    A quick question- I thought that your Phillips lines settled in South Africa and died in that country. If so, what has the British 1881 Census got to do with John Phillips jnr and Jane Wood? Is the My Heritage suggesting that your John Phillips/Jane Wood in 1881 were living in the UK? I have seen the MyHeritage data.

    I will come back to the Jewish Phillips.
    Phillip

  8. #288
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    Hi Jen
    The Phillips brothers can be seen in the Will of Coleman Lyon Phillips see Synagogue Scribes NA 403 7 March 1838. I have read the full will and there is no reference to any John Phillips and it would be speculating to associate your John Phillips with these Jewish brothers unless there was a clear statement in other records.
    See GSM 333/36 Synagogue Scribes for the Marriage of Coleman Lyon Phillips 13 June 1838 father Yehuda to Hannah Aron Joseph father Aharon- the Joseph are mentioned in the Will of Coleman.

    Will look further but I am wondering if we have not looked at some of this data in earlier posts and there is a danger of repeating research.

    Phillip

  9. #289
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    Hi Phillip
    John Phillips (son of 1820 settler) did die in South Africa in Oct 1923, Ngokoto, Engcobo Dist. Eastern Cape, South Africa. So why was jhe mentioned in the British Xensus of 1881.
    I don't recall these brothers - only came across them because of the name LYON, so hope we are not in danger of repeating!
    I see the only one that I could see that had a son was called John was Samuel Levi Phillips.
    Again, probably nothing, but somewhere I recall the my John may have had the 2nd name Samuel - no proof, just hearsay.
    Kind regards and my thanks!
    Jen.

  10. #290
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    Hi Jen
    The issue we have always had has been the variable quality of online family trees. The Jewish Phillips viz Coleman and his brothers- see Coleman Lyon Phillips 1832 request for admission to the company of comb makers- he names his father as Lyon Phillips who came to England 60 years prior and married an English woman- these are Jewish lines.
    See also on Ancestry.Co the records for George Lyon Phillips 1811-1886 died/buried Kingston Jamaica plus some other Lyon Phillips.

    Any confirmation of John Samuel Phillips?

    Phillip

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