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  1. #301

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    Hi Jen
    The Coleman Lyon Phillips line are all Jews whereas John Phillips SA settler appears not to be unless he converted to a Christian. We just do not know if the John Phillips as per the 1819 letter of application and the John who settled in SA are one in the same.
    See Synagogue Scribes GSB P 002 Coleman Phillips b Rosemary Lane 1794 father Lyon Hebrew name Yehuda b Kalonymus Coleman mother Judith Hebrew name Yetta bat Jesse.
    You said in your original posts that your John was the son of John Phillips and a Goldschmidt. What we cannot confirm is any link to the above Phillips nor to Goldschmit,Goldsmid,Goldsmith, Rothschilds or any Jewish lines.
    What are your thoughts?
    Phillip

  2. #302
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    Good morning Phillip
    I found this – is this him at last !! ??

    Facts
    Name and gender
    SAMUEL PHILLIPS
    Birth
    abt 1778 • St Mary Cochester, Essex, England
    1778
    (AGE)
    Marriage
    28 Jan 1798 • Fleet Street, London
    Ann Smith
    1798
    20
    Birth of Son John Samuel Phillips(1799–1859)
    21 Apr 1799 • Temple Church, London
    1799
    21
    Birth of Son William Phillips(1805–)
    1805 • Temple Church, London
    1805
    27

    Death of Son JOHN SAMUEL PHILLIPS (1799–1859)
    24 Jan 1859 • South Africa
    1859
    81
    What do you think ?? Notice the mothers name is SMITH . . . in reality GOLDSMITH ??
    Exciting!
    Kind regards.
    Jen.

  3. #303

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    Hi Jen
    The data looks very interesting. Who has made the association between Samuel Phillips and John Samuel Phillips your John?
    In addition, I noted the middle name Samuel for John but I have seen no record of this in an SA data.

    However, here is the issue- where do the Goldsmid/Goldsmith/Lyon middle names originate?

    Has someone looked up names and just added them to your John Phillips?

    Phillip

  4. #304
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    Hi Phillip
    I get Hints from Anchestry.com and this was one of them. I think John must have dropped the Samuel ??
    Will come back to you when I find more
    Kind regards.
    Jen.

  5. #305

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    Hi Jen
    I have seen the Ancestry family tree with John Samuel Phillips. There are several issues the main one is that this tree has John Samuel Phillips married and alive in the 1871 Census age 72. Your John died in 1859 in SA. Unless I am totally misreading the data then they can't be one in the same. In addition, from this family tree the John Samuel Phillips they have recorded appears in other census whereas your John was in SA by 1820.

    Please look carefully at the data in this tree because it appears to be a case of choosing same names rather than accurate cross checking and confirmed data.

    What do you think?
    Phillip

  6. #306
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    Hello Phillip
    I have been sitting here looking up 1820 Settler Correspondence and came across this!
    My JOHN PHILLIPS sailed on the La Belle Alllliance as part of Thomas Willson’s party . . .
    I remember Basil Phillips a cousin (whom I have never met) who lives in Australia, told me that JAMES was a family name. My g. grandfathers name was James Henry Widermere - I think this letter may just prove it !!! ??
    There is an address – what do you think ?
    Kind regards.
    Jen.

    PHILLIPS, JAMES re Thomas WILLSON, 1820 Settler
    Written by Sue Mackay.
    National Archives, Kew CO48/45, 189
    No.3 Tann St
    Aldersgate St
    3 Sept 1819

    Cape of Good Hope Colonization

    Sir,
    I have to apologise for troubling you, but understanding that a Mr. Thomas WILSON is officially employed by Government in collecting persons and sending in statements for the above purpose to your office and having seen a letter of his of which I beg to trouble you with a copy on the other side, and being desirous of avoiding the possibility of becoming a dupe to an artifice, I respectfully request to be informed if what he states is the fact, as the terms proposed by him are that £5 be paid the first week of the current month into his hands without any security for its proper appropriation, £5 in Octr & £5 the last week in the same month, which last sum is for the purchase of stores of him on landing at the colony.
    You will observe by his letter that it is necessary I should determine by the 8th inst and will therefore I trust excuse my pressing for an immediate answer.
    I am Sir most respectfully
    Your obed't humble svt
    Jas. PHILLIPS
    ******
    Bridge Cottage,
    Chelsea Water Works
    3 Sep 1819

    Sir,
    In conformity to the Government regulation for settling at the Cape of Good Hope your name has been duly entered to proceed under my direction and you are therefore required to pay your first deposit on or before the 8th inst otherwise you will be excluded the present opportunity. The vessel for your conveyance will be ready to sail in November.
    I am Sir
    Your obedient servant
    (signed) Thos. WILSON
    National Archives, Kew CO48/45, 189
    No.3 Tann St
    Aldersgate St
    3 Sept 1819

  7. #307
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    sorry - looks like I copied James address by mistake at end of letter from Thos. Wilson . . and g. grandfather's name - James Henry Wildermere . . .
    Also - there is no JAMES Phillips listed on the ships log on Le Belle Alliance, Wison's Party - only JOHN.
    Jen.

  8. #308

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    Hi Jen
    If you remember we looked at this data some time ago and Sue posted on your line and existing data. I understand how difficult it is to trace lines and have referred to my own problems tracing close relatives.
    The issue we have all along with your John Phillips is that there is too little confirmatory data to link him with his parents or siblings if he had any siblings. We don't know where or exactly when he was born nor if he was a Jew or converted to a Christian.
    His son Henry did not know his father's parents based on John's death record.
    In short we are stuck.

    Is there nothing in your family oral or written record not shared on this forum or elsewhere which would indicate John Phillips root? Are there no letters/family bible with names or anything which might confirm the Goldsmid/Goldschmidt/Rothschild family story.
    If your John was a Jew then he emphasised his Christian conversion with his strong adherence to the Protestant faith.

    Are no family sources/records at all which shed light on your John Phillips and which we can confirm/check?

    Phillip

  9. #309

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    Hi Jen
    We looked on page 26 of this thread at the address of James Phillips in his 1819 letter. We did not identify who this James was or if he had a connection to your John Phillips. Is he the James Phillips as per the Mary Stokes marriage or another? Is he the father of John?
    These are key issues?
    Phillip
    Phillip-Jewish,British Ancestry

    "The only true dead are those who have been forgotten"

  10. #310
    Loves to help with queries
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    Good morning Phillip
    Hope this finds you well
    I came across this yesterday - and it is very interesting!?!
    GOLDSMITH mtDNA . . thought it may be interesting just to see if there was someone similar to me:
    GOLDSMITH mtDNA
    (363704) Unknown Origin T1a1a1 T16126C, A16129G, A16163G, C16186T, T16187C, T16223C, G16230A, T16278C, C16294T, C16311T

    Jenbales T1a1 T16093C, T16126C, A16129G, A16163G, C16186T, T16187C, T16223C, G16230A, C16248T, T16278C, C16294T, C16311T

    I HAVE TWO EXTRA - T16093C AND C16248T - THE REST ARE ALL THE SAME . . .

    Your thoughts ?
    Kind regards.
    Jen.

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