Introduction & unusual request . . .

[phillip]

I have looked on Ancestry.Com London Baptism, Births and England records for John Phillips b 17 Sept 1797 London as per Basil data but can't see a record. As you know there is 1 Ancestry.Com private family tree which has John Phillips 1797-1859- did you contact the owner?
Also looked on London Lives 1690-1820 website for John Phillips, James Phillips, Goldsmid, Leopold- hundreds of Phillips; few Goldsmid and 1 John Leopold Jan 1790 Middlesex Sessions but insufficient data to give any further guidance.
Noted Felix Leopold married in 1846 to Julia Abrahams on JewishGen UK Data base 1851 Census but nothing earlier.

Any other thoughts regarding where to next?
Phillip

[JenBales]

Hello Phillip
I have had a long break from trying to find John Phillips . . .
I picked up again last week and decided to give it to the end of the year!
Today I think I may have found something! I was trying to find something on Mary Smith.
England and Wales Non-Conformist Record Indexes (RG4-8) 1588-1977
MARY PHILLIPS
- husband SAMUEL PHILLIPS
Samuel had another wife ANN and they had an only child, a son:
JOHN SAMUEL PHILLIPS birth 23 MAR 1799
Christening 21 APR 1799
Temple Church of England, London, London, England.
There is a discription - this person does not have a standardized christening place.
(not sure what Familysearch means by this?)
What do you think of this??
Kind regards.
Jen.

[JenBales]

Hi again Phillip
There is one more that I have just found going through one of my piles - not sure about this? But the names are what caught me!
This is from The Genealogist-crown copyright images reproduced courtesy of The National Archives, London, England.
RG4/3045
There are 4 entries:
THESE ARE TO CERTIFY, That Mary Phillips, duaghter of John Phillips and Ann his wife, was born in the parish of North Bradley (?) in the County of Wilts the 18th Day of September in the year of One thousand Seven hundred and Eighty Seven
Registerd by me: B Wilkins

THESE ARE TO CERTIFY, That John Phillips son of John Phillips and of Ann his wife . . . (same as above)
the 29th Day of March in the year One thousand Seven hundred and Eighty Nine

THESE ARE TO CERTIFY, That James Phillips son of John Phillips and of Ann his wife . . . (same as above)
the 30 Day of April in the year One thousand Seven hundred and Ninety Three

THESE ARE TO CERTIFY, That Ann Phillips daughter of John Phillips and Ann his wife . . . (same as above)
the 30 Day of September, in the year One thousand Seven hundred and Ninety Seven

Not sure what to make of this ??? very confusing!
Have a good evening
Kind regards.
Jen.

[phillip]

Jen
#232 I have looked at 1 Ancestry.Com family tree which looks as if they have mixed up the Christening of John Samuel Phillips with his Birth. However, this John is recorded as marrying an Ann Reed and living post the John Phillips SA.

Another re-think unfortunately. Will look at the other Phillips.
Phillip

[JenBales]

Hi Phillip
I have also found that JAMES Phillips b. 1799, Whitwell m. Mary Jacobs on 24th December, 1818 in Whitwell, Isle of Wight, Hamphire, UK.
Got me thinking . . what if my John was actually named James. I made contact with my dad's cousin, Basil Phillips, who lives in Australia and unfortunately knows less than I do - apart from the fact that he states that James is a family name.
Maybe he was not John Phillips at all!
Kind regards.
Jen.

[phillip]

It's quite possible for John to also called James but my advice is to stick with the known data albeit very limited on John Phillips b London according to his death record. That's all we have plus the family story of the Goldsmid/Rothschild.
You can look at hundreds of names but currently London is the recorded location for John's birth. However, the SA settlers record gives the London location for the John Phillips in the Jewish original party and we don't still know if he is one in the same with the Protestant John Phillips who is your ancestor.
There is still no other data beyond what we first located on the John/James Phillips and Benjamin Goldsmid and we said that seems a possible clue but of course maybe coincidence.

Phillip

[phillip]

Reviewing the Death Notice for John Phillips dated 24 Jan 1859 his age is 61 years and four months born London Middlesex. Unless this is totally incorrect data then my advice is to concentrate solely on John Phillips b Sept/Oct 1798 London Middlesex. However, there is no father/mother names to give any sound data. I don't think the other John Phillips born in other UK localities are relevant.
It looks as if you may not be able to identify his parents with current data unless you spot a link to someone's family tree which has good and secure data. Currently, we have not located such a tree/s. It's hard to accept that the data may not at present be available but so much is discovered each year that I would not give up hope. I have been looking for 20 years for my one of my 2x great grandparents including on BG Forums but nothing so far.

Phillip

[JenBales]

Hello Philip
Here I am back once more - and I have come across some information regarding John PHILLIPS in an Imigrant Ancestors Project done by the Centre for Family History and Genealogy at Brigham Young University. I cannot even tell you how I came across this ... it was suddenly just there!
JOHN PHILLIPS
General Information: Male, age 19, Ship name Belle Alliance, Commader's name: Rolfe
Events: Arrival 2 June, 1820 to South Africa, Place: Table Bay ( ... I did not know this!)
Notes: The document states that this individual is in Wilson's Party.
Source: NOTTINGHAMSHIRE ARCHIVES
Collection: Vessels to South Africa
This collection comes from a collection called Shipping Agents'List for Agincourt, which arrived in Sydney 6 October, 1848. It is an insert documenting vessels that sailed to South Africa in 1820.

Do you think there may be a chance of more info on John Phillips in the Nottinghamsire Archives??
THEN: there is also this:
JOHN CHRISTOPHER PHILLIPS: Male, Passenger of the Regiment, Son of JAMES PHILLIPS, died 3 September 1817
Ships name: Thomas Grenville
Events: Departure 11th March, 1817 Place: Cape of Good Hope.
Arrival: England on 7 January 1818
(It appears he died at sea . . ? )
Source: British Library.
Collection: 1. Ship's Lists found in the East India Company Ships'Journals 1605-1856. Ref: IOR/L/MAR/A-B

What do you think ??
Hope this finds you well.
Kind regards.
Jen.

[phillip]

Good to hear from you Jen. It would be worth contacting the Nottinghamshire Archives to see if there was any additional data on John Phillips. I suspect not but worth a try.
We don't have his letter of application nor that for the John Phillips of Holborn if they are not one in the same.
The John Christopher Phillips who appears to have died at sea- why do you think he may have a connection to your John?

Interestingly for my searches I have Nathaniel Isaacs who arrived in SA 1825- he is well documented and has a relationship to my lines.

I would not give up on your family history regarding the Goldsmid/Rothchilds. Together with another researcher we have been looking at Gentile/Jewish marriages which relate to our lines and this has caused us to look more widely at individual names and at least one attempt to alter data. Similarly, the use of terms such as 'nephew' or 'father in law' appear to have been used differently during the 1800s compared to today.

Let us know how your searches progress.

Best wishes
Phillip

[phillip]

Hi Jen
I think that you will find the following data interesting because it refers to the Rothschild family and does not appear among the family records. The data refers to the conversion of a Gioret Sarah in Paris who was to be married to a Rothschild. The date is 1840 and the family are not Goldsmid/Goldschmidt as per #1 of this thread but emphasises that there maybe records not in the public domain and held by religious or other civil groups. This of course is a much later record than the reference to the birth of John Phillips c 1798-1801 but I am using the information to make the point that the family history may well be true.
"On the 24th Sinan 5600 ( June 25 1840) the Gioret Sarah, who had been converted in Paris and who is the intended of one of the the brothers Rothihilds (sic), immersed ( in the Mikveh) before the Bet Din. And for a covert reason she was required to come here from Dublin to immerse a second time. And from this time forth she is permitted to marry any Israelite except a Cohen"
Pp174-175 From One End of the Earth to the Other. The London Bet Din, 1805-1855, and the Jewish Convicts transported to Australia Jeremy I Pfeffer Sussex Academic Press 2010

Pfeffer then suggested that the Rothschild House in London was very concerned about marrying out of the Jewish faith and cited that Hannah Rothschild had renounced Judaism and married a Christian, the Hon Henry Fitzroy. Her brother Anthony was a well known 'playboy' and it appears that in 1839 he had a serious relationship with a young woman on the Continent but did not want to marry her. The family closed ranks and Anthony married his cousin Louisa March 30, 1840.
No further information on 'Sarah' ( I assume this to be the conversion name and not her real name) is known and nothing about her appears in the Rothschild records but Pfeffer alos asked was Sarah expecting a child from the relationship hence the Bet Din involvement.

In the case of your family history there is no issue regarding conversion because the Goldsmid/Goldschmidt woman married out to a Christian if indeed there was a marriage. Or did her family seek a Divorce if there was a marriage. I don't think that the Rothschild and Goldsmid would have taken such a marriage well particularly if the Phillips was employed by the Rothschild and given the close family connections between the Goldsmid/Rothschild.

I will post on the Bet Din and divorce and the English courts bearing in mind that a divorce may not have occurred.

Phillip