Introduction & unusual request . . .

[JenBales]

Hi Phillip
Gosh maybe the old saying of "dumb blonde" does apply to me - sometimes!!! I totally missed the Census date of 1871 - was focused on the John Samuel Phillips name and the address given . . . so again "jumped the gun!"
I did have a really good laugh though, so thank you both for that. Raising of Lazarus is found in chapter 11 of the Gospel of JOHN - that name again!!
You are right of course and the possibility of John being one and the same as P Pillips on Nordens List and a Jew is still likely. I remember one of the family stating though that James is our family name above all others. So does the name of John even apply ?
I feel a bit disappointed to tell the truth, because the chances of finding out who he really was and who his parents were is rapidly slipping away . . .
Kind regards.
Jen.

[phillip]

It's not surprising that errors or not looking at the detail occur with family history or any other kind of research. I remember many years ago reading a Ph.D thesis submission on behalf of someone. I pointed out that I did not quite understand a crucial issue in the thesis and the person's response was and I quote.." Gee, I hope they don't ask me that question in the viva..." By then the PhD had already been submitted and surprise the issue was exactly what they asked about.
Similarly, I have spent days looking at my own data and not seeing the key points until someone had read the information and spotted what I had been looking for.

Your John Phillips- it maybe that you will have to hold onto the data that you have until perhaps new data emerges but unless it specifically gives the names of John's parents and can be proved then I am not sure what else to do. However, there is something very intriguing about the Goldsmid/Goldschmidt/Rothschilds story. It seems to me to have some possible truth and was it by coincidence that we discovered the Phillips/Goldsmid marriage data? Of all the names that is a pretty good coincidence. But who were these Phillips -James/John? I would like to discover who they were down the track from 1790 wedding.

Anyone on your line who has read our posts and made comments that might open up other channels of enquiry.
Phillip

[JenBales]

Hi Phillip
I found this:
LONDON, ENGLAND, CHURCH OF ENGLAND MARRIAGES & BANNS, 1754-1931
Westminster-St. Marylebone - 1787-1794
JAMES PHILLIPS
No: 329
of the Parifb (?) of Saint Dunstan in the West London, Widower and Mary Stokes of this Parish, spinster were married in this Church by Licence on the Eight Day of April in the Year One Thousand Seven Hundred and Ninety.
In the Prefence (?) of Mary (?) Lesley - Mary (?) Goldsmid - Hector (?) Salamons - John Phillips
*Jen's note - quite hard to read writing of 1st names*
Doing a little dance !!!!
What do you think ???
Kind regards
Jen.
PS. Not sure how I found this - I think it found me

[JenBales]

The page number is 110.
Jen.

[phillip]

Do you remember I found this record some weeks ago and posted the data. I also said that one of my Hart line had married into the descendants of Benjamin Goldsmid. This was the data that linked Benjamin Goldsmid to James Phillips because ( I posted this information) in Benjamin's will 1808 he left a bequest to James who was his clerk. If you also remember I queried what Hester Salomon was doing attending the wedding and wondered if it was purely because of the friendship between Benjamin and James. As for Mary Lesley I didn't find any data nor did we discover the maiden name of Mary Stokes.

Just be cautious that we don't repeat data we already know about. I have done this myself on some posts.

As a recap- who was the John Phillips at the wedding of James Phillips/Mary Stokes? What happened to James/John? Who was Mary Stokes ? Why was Hester at a Christian marriage? All of this links to the 1790 wedding - is there any possible link between your John Phillips and these Phillips- we just don't have answers to these questions at present.

My advice is to concentrate on James/John at the 1790 wedding. Is this James or John a father of your John Phillips b 1798 London?
Were James/John in any way also linked to Hester through friendship/business- it has got to be a reasonably close relationship at least to James. Wasn't James a widower when he married ( can't remember all the data I posted) if so, who was his first wife? Is the link to the Goldsmid also through her? Was she a Jew?

Have you "mapped out" the data we have with the questions which need answering? This would help to focus direction.
Phillip

[JenBales]

Hi Phillip
In the same LONDON, ENGLAND, CHURCH OF ENGLAND MARRIAGES & BANNS, 1754-1931
Westminster-St. Marylebone - 1787-1794
JAMES PHILLIPS
Page 60-
No: 179 JAMES ENNEFS (?) PHILLIPS of this Parifb, Bachelor and SARAH JONES of the same Parish, Spinster, were married in this Church by Banns this Twenty Fifth Day of December in the Year One Thousand Seven Hundred and Eighty nine by me (?) Jacob - Curate.
This marriage was solomnized between us - James Ines Phillips - Sarah Jones
In the Prefence of (?) Jones?
John Phillips.

Supposition: This Sarah Jones died shortly after their marriage 1789 and James Phillips then remarried very quickly to Mary Stokes in 1790 ???
Kind regards.
Jen.

[phillip]

The problem that we have is trying to identify this and the other James Phillips post their marriage. I have looked on Ancestry.Com public trees but can't see a James Ennes/Ines Phillips married to a Sarah Jones. The middle name is often dropped in the later records and it is likely that the James Phillips in both the 1789 and 1790 was born at the minimum circa late 1760s. If so, this is likely to mean he was dead by the 1850s at the latest unless he lived to be over 100. The 1841 and 1851 census records are unlikely to record him and we also don't have sufficient data to identify these Phillips so that we can look in other records. We have tried this before.

Some individuals did re marry very quickly following the death of a partner but we just don't know if the James Ennes/Ines Phillips who married in 1789 to Sarah Jones was the same James Phillips who married in 1790 to Mary Stokes. My thinking is that if Benjamin Goldsmid attended the marriage of James Phillips it is likely that he may have attended his first marriage. This depends on when James Phillips became Goldsmid's clerk.

I wonder if it would prove useful to take a time period of say 10+ years and look at the James Phillips marriages in London to see if Benjamin Goldsmid is named as a witness say as an example 1775-1790- I can't remember how old Benjamin was when he died so that we have a time frame for him as well as James Phillips. We don't know how old either of the James Phillips were so that limits us to very approximate time periods for their dob and how old they might have been at marriage.

Phillip

[JenBales]

Hi Phillip
The only other info I came across of any relevance is an article that states:
May 1st 1808 - At Roehampton, Benjamin Goldsmid died suddenly in the prime of his life. b.c. 1755 - d. 1808. Abraham & Benjamin were of Dutch origin, and were the uncles of the financier Sir Isaac Lyon Goldsmid. Hester was Benjamin Goldsmid's youngest daughter.
Rothchilds, Sasoons, Goldsmids and Montefiores were all prominent members of the Anglo Jewish Assosiation which was formed in 1871.
Montefiores introduced Samuel Phillips to the staff of the TIMES where he became chief literary editor, professing Christianity, his son becoming PA to the Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr. Benson. Are these Phillips's my relations??
Unfortunately I have run out of spare time, as I have 16 family members for Christmas!! I had been hoping to present them with a completed family tree
Need to get cracking on other things for a while!
Again, thank you so much for all your time and patience, encouragement and most of all knowledge.
I have really enjoyed "working" with you!
It is not good bye, merely "adious" for now!
Kind regards.
Jen.

[JenBales]

Last one for now!
Sarah Phillips (Goldsmid)
Gender:
Female

Birth:
1883
Immediate Family:
Wife of Joseph Phillips
Mother of Sadie Amelia Phillips
Kind regards.
Jen.

[JenBales]

Just as I was done - this popped up

Anne Phillips (born Goldsmid)
Anne Phillips (born Goldsmid) was baptized on February 4 1776, in Parish: All Saints, Edmonton, County: Middelsex Borough: Enfield , England.
Anne married John Phillips Snr. SV/PROG No.1.
John was born in 1775.

They had one son: John (1820 South African Settler) Phillips Snr. SV/PROG.
Anne passed away.

IS THIS THE ONE????
Kind regards.
Jen.