Introduction & unusual request . . .

[phillip]

Jen
Are these questions my challenge for the week? Have always disliked jigsaws/crosswords/games etc so why do these family history puzzles intrigue me?

Let's step back and re-visit the data- I can see and have already seen all these records you refer to but what I can't do is to tie them into your John Phillips. First of all, the James who appears as the clerk to Benjamin Goldsmid in the 1790 marriage has got to be born at least pre 1770.We know he was a widower at his 2nd marriage and was alive in 1808 when Benjamin died. As for the John Phillips witness at the marriage we have no idea of his age.
The 2 James/John Phillips attorneys we don't know their ages.
Next, your John was born circa 1798 based on his death record. The later dates of very early 1800s would mean a disparity of approx 4 years. This is not impossible but would suggest your John was not the 2 individuals in the records you posted.
You can pick as many John and James from the records but I would concentrate on circa 1798 because otherwise it is 'clutching at straws'.
I can tell that you are still uncertain that P Pillip and John Phillips maybe one in the same but I am not so sure.
I have seen another Samuel Phillips well known editor/author son of Phillip Phillips glass cutter and later chandelier and cut glass manufacturer who changed his religion from Jew to Anglican and of course that is what Jesse wife of Benjamin Goldsmid did with her children.

James and John Phillips born in Holborn- I spotted that a while ago but who are they given your John was born 1798 unless you discount the 1819/20 ages of 19-20 years.

What are your thoughts?
Phillip

[JenBales]

Hi Phillip
I have been giving this whole thing a lot of thought and re-read through my files including the letter from my dad's old cousin LF Wood.
So here is an interesting new challenge for you ! (for this week )

We have been looking at Goldsmid - but what if we should be looking at Goldschmidt - changed to Goldsmith ? ?
He wrote in his letter: “The mother of John Phillips (1820) was a Miss Goldschmidt (his spelling) a Jewess who was excommunicated for marrying a Christian. . .”
It then gets a bit confusing when he continues: “Phillips father of John (1820) was an illegitimate son of the world famous banking family.”
Or did he mean that John's (1820) mother Goldschmidt, was already expecting a baby when she married John Phillips (step-father) and he was given his name ??
LF Wood said that there may be some discrepancies - not important ones. Basic facts accurate . . .
In one of the SA records Elizabeth’s (daughter of John & Sarah) 2nd name is given as a Goldsmith. But in all others, it is Goldsmid.
The next paragraph was also passed to me, a while back, via an old Phillips cousin.
“His father was a banker in England who eloped with a Jewess, Miss Goldschmidt. Her father worked for Rothschild’s Bank and he was a brother-in-law to one of the Rothschild’s (in other words Miss Goldschmidt’s mother was a Rothschild). Miss Goldschmidt was largely ostracized from her family for eloping AND marrying a Christian. From this elopement, a son was born – JOHN PHILLIPS 2nd.
The son, also named John Phillips 2nd, came to South Africa with the Wilson’s party on the Belle Alliance with the settlers in 1820. In 1829 John Phillips 2nd, married SARAH HAYHURST, aged 26 at the time. Sarah had also come to South Africa with the 1820 Settlers with her father’s party – Richard Hayhurst.
I found this yesterday:
"James Goldsmith’s father Frank Goldsmith changed the family name from the German Goldschmidt to the English Goldsmith. The Goldschmidts, neighbours and rivals to the Rothschild family, were a wealthy, Frankfurt-based, Jewish family, who had been influential figures in international merchant banking since the 16th century."

The most common names in my family tree are: John, James, Henry, Elizabeth, Alexander, Amelia, Joseph, Edward, Mary and Thomas.

What do you think ?? Is it worth basically starting over ??
Kind regards.
Jen.

[phillip]

I did look at the Goldschmidt family on this thread some time back and I think noted a marriage to the Rothschilds but all the lines were well recorded. However, if you have an illegitimate birth all options are open.
I am now getting confused- you refer to James Goldsmith and his father Frank- who are they? Did you write about them in earlier posts?
Let us see exactly who the Rothschilds and Goldschmidt were- women- when John Phillips was born circa 1798. But, even if we do see female names what proof is there that John Phillips is in any way related- I have never seen any Phillips/Goldschmit/Goldsmid/Rothschilds connection to any recorded marriage. You say there was a marriage but then that John Phillips was illegitimate.
There is unlikely to be any recorded evidence if John was born illegitimate particularly to a wealthy family but I have seen wills where the illegitimate children including those of slaves were referred to as 'natural children' including a wealthy family who connect to one of my lines. However, I have read the Goldsmid et al wills and can see no reference to any Phillips ( not all wills are online I know and many Jewish wills from the early days are in Europe).

Let us have a fresh look.
Phillip

[JenBales]

Hi Philip
Sorry - I guess I am confusing myself! I do not have anything on James Goldsmith or his father James.
Only wanted to show you that in this article it states "The Goldschmidts, neighbours and rivals to the Rothschild family, were a wealthy, Frankfurt-based, Jewish family." And that the name was changed to Goldsmith. There is a possibility that they knew each other
John Phillips married ? Goldschmidt/Goldsmid/Goldsmith The way the old man LF Wood wrote the paragraph: Phillips father of John was an illegitimate son of a man from a world famous banking family.
Or was it John . . . he is not very clear!
Glad you are still interested. I don't think we have anywhere else to go!
Kind regards.
Jen.

[phillip]

I have used similar,exact, sounds like, soundtex to search for marriages/births of Goldschmidt/Goldsmid/Goldsmith and Phillips on Ancestry.Com. The only record that came up was this John GOULDSMITH marriage to Martha PHILLIPS St Mary Whitechapel Tower Hamlets 5 July 1795. No ages given other than 21 years upwards.
Then this maybe the Baptism of John Gouldsmith 12 July 1767 St Andrew Holborn-father Samuel Gouldsmith and mother Susanna of High Holborn.

Now to look at the Goldschmidt/Rothschilds.

Phillip

[phillip]

I have spent several hours looking carefully at the Goldschmidt/Rothschilds lines. First of all, the Goldsmid bankers Benjamin and Abraham are not part of the Goldschmidt lines that I can see or have read about. The Goldschmidt surname changed with Frank Goldsmith 1878-1967.
Next, the Goldschmidt banker lines which might in anyway be relevant to the period we are researching begin with Hayum Salomon Goldschmidt 1772-1843 but all of his children were born between 1798-1814 so they can't be parents of any John Phillips b circa 1798 London.

The father of Hayum was Salomon Benedict Schuh 1738-1812-Rechle Cassel- they had 7 children- 2 female- Besselchen Goldschmidt m Herz Cassel and Samuel Frankel; Golde Goldschmidt 1767-1833 m Meyer Jacob Hadle

This means that any of the above lines would have had to have an illegitimate child born in the UK when they were living as far as I can determine in Europe.

Nb The Rothschilds genealogy is online through the Rothschilds family and there is no way that any illegitimacy is recorded.

In my view unless there is a family document that is confidential to the families and which states clearly that one of the Goldschmidt had an illegitimate child with a Phillips father it is going to be impossible to verify the comments made by the individuals about Phillips/Goldschmidt/Rothschilds connections.

Unless it is pure coincidence the James/John Phillips and Benjamin Goldsmid link maybe the only indication of a Goldsmid/Phillips link but that is about as far as it goes currently.
Phillip

[JenBales]

Hi Phillip
I would just to take this opportunity to thank you sincerely for your time and effort in helping me in trying to solve my family puzzle.
I guess I was hoping for a miracle
I have so much family 1820 information, photo's etc. Some of the stories are hearsay - but most are documented facts as in the Lower Albany Chronicles Part 1 to 6, compiled by E. Morse-Jones. There are numerous mention of John and his boys. It was a very hard life!
At least I can be grateful for that and know that we have certainly tried!!
I am not giving up just yet - need to think where else we can look Even if we cannot find his parents, I would like to know if he was Jewish or not . . just as difficult I should imagine.
Kind regards.
Jen.

[phillip]

I have read all the Aaron Goldsmid 1715-1782; Benjamin Goldsmid died 1808; Abraham Goldsmid died 1810 plus the various sons wills in full- see Synagogue Scribes Will extracts for the GOLDSMID- the Bankers. In each will the female children are either married or minors or widows depending on their age. This means that each female child is accounted for if alive at the time of their father's death.
There are no references other than in the will of Benjamin Goldsmid to any Phillips nor any reference to a daughter being written out of a bequest. I can't see any 'missing'daughters based on Goldsmid family trees but accept that if they were disowned then they might not appear in a will or in a family tree. Given the period of time were are looking at this pre-dates civil registration but there are Synagogue records for some of the lines which do show various births, marriages, deaths.

I have tried hard and will keep looking but at present don't know where else to research.
Don't give up just yet.
Phillip

[phillip]

When you look at the data on the Rothschild Bank in England it states that Nathan Mayer von Rothschild founded the bank first in Manchester in 1798 and then London in 1811-NM Rothschild.

Your John Phillips was born 1798 London Middlesex and if his father was working for Rothschilds there are various possibilities. Either he worked for Rothschilds in Europe pre 1798 or was employed when the Bank started in England or in the bank in London. In any event, John Phillips was born in London in 1798 according to his death record but bearing in mind Henry his son did not know the names of his grandparents.
The Rothschild/Goldschmidt official relationship through marriage does not commence until much later through the marriage of Maximilian Goldschmidt 1843-1940 and Minna Karoline Freiin Rotthschild.

This means that any pre 1800 relationship an unknown Phillips had with an unknown Goldschmidt resulting in a John Phillips b 1798 London would not have been associated with any early Goldschmidt/Rothschild marriage because such a marriage did not occur between the families until the later 1800s. This means that the unknown Phillips would not have been a brother in law of a Rothschild because all the marriages are accounted for.
I am trying to map the family folklore with actual data and you can see the issues that emerge.

Next issue, is Phillips the real name for John? I ask this because in my own line i have Percy Hart son of Sarah Hart and unknown who appears to be illegitimate but then has the surname Underwood. All the evidence including an annuity Percy received from his Hart nephew all indicate he is the son of Sarah Hart a very wealthy Sydney woman.

Do we have definite proof John Phillips was born London Middlesex in circa 1798 other than what Henry stated on his father's death record?

I am trying to 'test' all the data we know about.

What do you think?
Phillip

[phillip]

There are Rothschild and Goldschmidt German Marriages- for example Gitta Rothschild died 26 Feb 1812 age 57 Frankfurt am Main spouse Salomon Daniel Goldschmidt; Adelheid Goldschmidt nee Rothschild death 1834 age 57.
There maybe more. Whether or not any of the German Rothschild/Goldschmidt marriages relate to an unknown Goldschmidt who had a child by an unknown Phillips we don't know. Similarly, I have not done sufficient research to connect any of these Rothschild/Goldschmidt to the wealthy bankers of that name.
There maybe a chance that the family story is true but it's a slim one based on current evidence. It's very unlikely that you will see a Phillips/Goldschmidt marriage or other record if John Phillips was born illegitimate

Phillip