Why two birth certs.

[popsit]

I know where she was in 1941, she was living at 3 field street, Wigan with Frederick Baldwin whom she married in 1941 (fourth Nov.). When Frederick remarried in 1949 it is noted that he was formerly married to Patricia and had gained a divorce from her. By the by where would I gain (re info) more info from.....divorce or a will

Popsit

[Pam Downes]

I know where she was in 1941, she was living at 3 field street, Wigan with Frederick Baldwin whom she married in 1941 (fourth Nov.). When Frederick remarried in 1949 it is noted that he was formerly married to Patricia and had gained a divorce from her. By the by where would I gain (re info) more info from.....divorce or a will

Popsit

Dundee10 has posted links re more info re divorces in post # 4 and a link to the Probate Index (which in turn has a link on where/how to apply for a copy of the will) in post # 7.

Pam

[popsit]

Yes back then I was starting my search and have worked on it ever since and got a lot more info. Who the real father was for Terence. Patricia was like I said in my query above, approx. two and a half months pregnant and I have been trying to ascertain if she had known Fitzpatrick before marrying Baldwin. Was he a one night stand?? did he know she was pregnant. I think Patricia was in touch with him (Fitzpatrick) as he has turned up to sign birth papers as the father. The big question is......why marry Baldwin why would Fitzpatrick not marry her. No, Fitzpatrick was not married to someone else. Even if Fitzpatrick was a one night stand and patricia thought she wouldn't see him again (which I don't believe as she was able to go and register Terence with Fitzpatrick so must have known where to contact him).
The big question for me is......why marry Baldwin, did he think he was the father or was it a marriage of convenience, did Baldwin know he wasn't the father. Last but not least why did Fitzpatrick not marry her. I might add that 3 field street was the family home. Ahhhhh!!!! I am never ever going to know the answers to my questions as answers would never have been written down, they just happened.

[popsit]

I have decided to apply for the will, thank you for giving me the site to go to

Popsit

[popsit]

Thank you for that, it does make things a little clearer. Terence was the name of the child she had. By this time Patricia was not living with Baldwin in 3 field street but living at 18 star street Paddington and so was Fitzpatrick. So she really only lived with Baldwin for a few months (from Nov. 1941 when she married Baldwin ) till just before she had Terence (2nd Qrt 1942). I am thinking perhaps Baldwin did not know and found out that Fitzpatrick was the father and left her.

Popsit

[popsit]

It sounds to me more and more and now after reading your email that perhaps Patricia did register the birth or it was done automatically in the Baldwin name. Baldwin was the name of the man she had married for a few short months. Her maiden name was Sandley. Apparently Terence used the name Baldwin for some time then changed to Jellis then lastly Fitzpatrick. It seems like his surname was what the man who his mother was living with at the time was the one he went under. I to will be interested in what the cert. I have ordered will say when the birth was registered as the one I have in the Fitzpatrick name was registered in May 1942 and the child was born in march, however that tells me maybe Fitzpatrick was not on the scene when she gave birth in March but Fitzpatrick has turned up so the child was reg. again in the fathers name. All boiled down I think the cert. I have applied for in the Baldwin name wont have a fathers name as you say above. Will definitely let you know what is on it as soon as I get it. Can I ask, were both your certs have the same vol. and page number.

Popsit

[Dundee10]

You need to read the replies to this thread again as I feel you are not understanding anything that has been said. In particular you need to read the reply from AntonyMMM as they explain it so clearly.

The first thing is that birth registrations (in England/Wales) do not show any surname for the child until 1969 - only the child's first name(s) are given. The entry is then indexed according to the surnames of the parents and their marital status, there is no separate entry so the certificate you have ordered will be exactly the same as the one you have.

In this case it appears that the mother was married to Terence BALDWIN at the time the baby was born, so her name will appear on the entry as Patricia BALDWIN formerly SANDLEY. But at the time the birth was registered it was acknowledged that the father was Patrick FITZPATRICK, and so his name will appear in the father's column. As he was not married to the mother, his details could only be shown if he attended to regsiter the birth with her, which he apparently did as you say he signed as informant with the mother.

The fact that the birth is registered by joint informants confirms that the parents are not married (to each other), and also means that the entry is indexed under both parent's surnames.

[AntonyMMM]

Hi,
So I have the birth cert for the Fitzpatrick birth and have ordered the other that I thought was another. When and if I get another copy is it going to say exactly the same as the Fitzpatrick one.

Popsit

Everything you have said indicates that there is one entry, indexed correctly under both parent's names, and any certificate you order will be exactly the same.

At the time this birth was registered, as a married woman, Patricia could have named her husband as the father (without him being present) which would be the simplest solution for her. But if she knew that to be false then she would be committing perjury.

She went to register with Fitzpatrick - that means they acknowledged at the time that he was the father.

There are circumstances in which a birth can be re-registered - and if it happened within the same registration quarter then the entry would have the same reference but nothing you have said suggests this is the case here. If it was a re-registration, the wording in the informant column would make that clear.

perhaps Patricia did register the birth or it was done automatically in the Baldwin name.

The child is not given a surname during registration (before 1969) the name Baldwin appears only because it is the mother's name at the time.

[popsit]

Apologies for appearing to not have understood your explanations. I do understand the situation now but cant get my head around why Patricia would marry Freddie for such a few months when Fitzpatrick was obviously in the picture before and after the marriage, however I also know there could be many answers to that which I will never know. Thank you for your reply

Popsit