EDWARD JACOB JONES-PHOEBE JACOBS

[jacobsjones]

Phillip
In #77 you mention that Sarah "made a x mark for her signature" do you mean that there is a significant meaning behind this "x mark"?
Regards
Yoel

[phillip]

Yoel
Looking at graphs of Adult Literacy during the period 1700-1850s UK some 55% of women could not sign their name at marriage circa 1820s. There was no significance to my referring to the "x" mark made by Sarah at her marriage. George appears to have had higher literacy because at the end of his life he was a Superintendant of Customs and earlier a tide waiter which I assume required him to read and record various records.
My interest is who exactly was Sarah Asher aka Hasher and why was her marriage to a gentile.
Phillip

[phillip]

Yoel
You might want to look at the Family Search data base on England Customs and Excise Records ( National Insitute)- this is reference to the various records held in the National Archives UK- see in particular the Excise Records, Widows Pensions and Entry Papers which have varying details of family.

You can order certain records from the National Archives- see the records data base and name of individuals listed on the data base but not all individuals are listed and often a visit to the NA is required.
Phillip

[phillip]

Yoel
Thinking more about the roots of Sarah Asher aka Hasher and the wedding record of Esther her daughter- the record stated that Sarah was a Jew but her husband was not. The baptism for a Sarah Asher indicated a Church of England ceremony. If Sarah was born a Jew then this is either through her mother or else both parents. If it is only through her mother and not her father as indicated in the baptism record then both Sarah and her mother were Jews but their husbands were not. If both parents were Jews why would they get their daughter baptised unless they had converted.Alternatively, Sarah Asher who was baptised may not be the right person particularly if both her parents were Jews.
I hope this makes sense because at present we are assuming that Sarah Asher who was baptised and the Sarah who married George Gordon are one in the same. I would like to see further records on the Jewish marriages of the daughters in order to obtain further data if of course it is recorded.
Phillip

[jacobsjones]

Phillip,
I have been reading the BG thread "Asher's & Cohen's - London & Birmingham".
What are your thoughts of our Sarah Asher/Hasher coming form that line?
I notice that there is an Abigail Cohen/Asher who is married in a church with a surname "Hasher",
Perhaps, Sarah is a daughter of Judith.
Judith's will mentions daughters, and Julia (btw there is a Julia Asher in Sarah Gordon's house in the 1841 census) is so far the only confirmed.
Also, David Asher is mentioned as being born in Wapping, as is mentioned on Sarah's marriage record.
Also, the early death of Judith could explain Sarah's 'marrying out'.
Also, Sarah was the name of Myer's mother.
What are your thoughts?
Regards,
Yoel

[phillip]

Yoel
I have been trying to unpick the data on the various lines and it is not easy because information posted on family trees is often incomplete or has errors.
Here is a range of data based on my current research. None of it links Sarah Asher aka Hasher to the Cohen/Alexander lines but that is not to say that there is no relationship just because I have found no specific data.
Myer Asher 1764-1838 m Judith Abrahams 1775-1818- this is the line for David Asher 1812-1866 one of their children who marries Sarah Cohen 1814-1895- see Synagogue Scribes Marriage Records- GSM 038/2-Myer ASHER Hebrew name Meir 23 August 1797 father's Hebrew name Asher SCHNEIDER m Judith ABRAHAMS (Gitla) father's Hebrew name Wolf OPICH
The family trees on Ancestry.Com give the children of Myer and Judith as-Benjamin 1798-1866; Asher 1802-1879; Myers 1805-1838; Abraham 1811-1841; DAVID 1812-1866; Solomon 1814; JULIA 1815-1895 M Lewis ALEXANDER 1817-1897- their children Edward 1843-1934;Morris 1844-; Henry 1846-; Elizabeth 1847-

Abigail HASHER nee COHEN married Richard RENTELL in 1844. Abigail died- GRO Death Index Abigail Rentell March qtr 1861 Birmingham 6d 67
1851 Census
Abigail and Richard are living in the same house as Moses OTTELENGUI ( the surname spelling varies):
(Crown Copyright,TNA) HO 107 1543 662 12

29 Shepherd Street Christchurch Spitalfields Middx
Moses OTTELENGUI H M 40 General Dealer b Rosemary Lane
Emma wife 30 b Bishopsgate
J ? son un 16 General Dealer
Rachel dau 14 scholar
Israel son 9
Rayner? dau 6
David son 4
Joshua son 3
All children born Spitalfields
RICHARD RENTELL M 25 Hatter b Aldgate
Ab wife 30 b Mie End
Mary dau 4 b Commercial Road
Deborah dau 14 weeks

See Thread Asher's and Cohen's -London Birmingham #18 and #20 for Ottelengui and ASCHER #20 relationships.
Based on the above data Abigail Rentell nee Hasher nee Cohen was born c 1821 and a widow in 1844 when she married Richard Rentell.

There is a family tree which has Myers Moses Asher 1805-1838 m Abigail Cohen and Abigail as marrying Rentell with a daughter from her first marriage Julia Asher Hamburger Jacobs 1837-1923 m Simon Jacobs 1831-1889.

I have yet to look in any detail at this Julia.
Phillip

[phillip]

Yoel
As a recap the Julia Asher age 25 in the 1841 Census living with Sarah Gordon would have a dob circa 1815. However, the 1841 census had ages after 15 years rounded down by 5 years. This was not applied consistently so the Julia Asher age 25 maybe 30 given a dob circa 1810. The census returns for Julia Asher who is recorded in several family trees as being one of the daughters of Judith Asher who died in 1818 wife of Myer Asher has a dob 1815.
There is still too little data to confirm that Julia and Sarah were related nor who their parents were.
Looking at all the data on the Asher's and Cohen's -Birmingham and London thread I can't see anything which would link the Julia Asher and Sarah Gordon nee Asher as for example sisters. Nor is there any data on the Ancestry.Com family trees to confirm the relationships.
What are your thoughts? Have I missed data?
Phillip

[phillip]

Yoel
A note which may or may not prove relevant- The Jewish Victorian:Genealogical Information from the Jewish Newspapers 1861-70 transcribed and edited Doreen Berger, 2004 Publisher Robert Boyd- refers to the death of the father of A Asher and Mrs Goldstein 20 Hunter Street and 176 Fleet Street. This Asher/Goldstein link relates to the marriage of George Goldstein b 1834 Prussia to Esther Asher b 1834 daughter of Isaac Benjamin Asher and Mary Moses.Isaac Benjamin Asher's father was Benjamin Asher from Holland. There are census and other records relating to this family. Whether or not your Goldstein line relates to these Asher/Goldstein is unconfirmed.Benjamin Asher arrived in the UK according to the circa 1810 and his son Isaac was born in London.Benjamin was dead by 1840 when Isaac applied for Freedom of Admission to the City of London.
Phillip

[jacobsjones]

Hi Phillip,
Was this Benjamin Asher a brother of Myer Asher?
Regards,
Yoel

[phillip]

Yoel
The data for Benjamin Asher 1765-1824 who is recorded on Ancestry.Com family trees as a brother of Myer records in his will a son Isaac among other sons and daughters. However, this Isaac was a dentist and he died 1837 his will NA 1468- see his father's will and that of his mother Judith NA 032. These wills are all on Synagogue Scribes website.
Based on this data the Isaac of 1840 with father Benjamin are not part of the Benjamin/Judith family.
Phillip