EDWARD JACOB JONES-PHOEBE JACOBS

[phillip]

Yoel
As a summary to your original request to see if there was any connection between your lines and Lord George Gordon the current data I have posted shows no relationship. The data does show that the George Gordon name appears to have been passed down through some of the lines but this maybe just a common family naming tradition. The Gordon line also confirms that the children of George Gordon and Sarah Asher either remained in the UK or else settled in Australia. Some of the children married into Jewish families others did not.
Without data from yourself this is about as far as I can help.
Please post any updates regarding your lines and there maybe more clues to help confirm or reject the Lord George Gordon connection.
Phillip

[jacobsjones]

Phillip
Thank you for all of the above posts, the research you have done and the information therein is truly remarkable.
Yoel

[jacobsjones]

Phillip
Re: Post #10; Regarding Lord George Gordon, I wish that I had more to share regarding a the connection, however, both my grandmother and my great uncle tell me that all that they know is that they were told by their mother that the family line is related to him. My grandmother also tells me that she was told the story of one of her ancestors who sent embroidery to Queen Victoria on behalf of the Auxiliary of the Synagogue in Scotland. They originally sent it in English and they didn’t receive a response. When they sent it in French, they were accepted and a train was sent to bring her to dine with Queen Victoria, which she did. My grandmother, whose name is Rosalia, was told that there was a telegram that was to be passed down to her from her grandmother, that was to be passed down to all "Rosalia"s, but wasn’t. This story seems to imply that there was a Jewish line in the family. I would assume that this came from the Gordon/Asher line, as I believe that the Goldstein line was from Germany. Would you have any information on Albert Goldstein’s history? Also, do you have any information on Sara Asher’s line?
Yoel

[jacobsjones]

Re: Post #11; What could be the explanation of the 6 year age difference for Bathsheba, when there is a 10yr difference between the two census records?

[jacobsjones]

Phillip
Re: Post #12; the 1851 census seems to show that Bathsheba was married already. Do you agree with this? Do you have any information on this marriage? Also, I believe that Bathsheba married William Cartwright Mumford in Victoria, Australia in 1855, having their first child, Eliza Bathsheba Mumford, in Geelong, Australia in 1856. Could it be that this is the marriage mentioned in the census?

[phillip]

Yoel
I will try and answer your questions based on the various records I have just researched. First of all, ages in census can vary widely for numbers of reasons- who was the person giving the census data and did they actually know the ages of the individuals, 1841 census is a rounded age of +- 5 years but this was not always consistent, many people did not always know how old they were.....

The Australia Birth/Marriage records do show a marriage of Elizabeth GORDON to William Cartwright MUMFORD Victoria 1854 and importantly the births of William Cartwight Mumford 1855-1917 records mother Elizabeth GORDON and father William Cartwright Mumford-the same parents are recorded for Eliza Bathsheba Mumford 1856-1940; Frances Esther Mumford 1858-1864; Harriet Mumford 1860-1952; George Gordon Mumford 1862-; Rosetta Mumford 1864-1865
These records suggest that this is Elizabeth Bathsheba GORDON daughter of George and Sarah.

I can't see a Death for William Cartwright Mumford but as I posted earlier Beersheba GORDON Married Albert Goldstein in 1868. However, note that GORDON was her maiden name and if so, why did she not use her married name of Mumford.

If the data is correct then there are half sisters/brothers of the Mumford/Gordon/Goldstein lines.

Marriage Harriet Mumford to Isidore Arthur MEYERS 1860-1929 and their children Esther Bathsheba Meyers 1884-1959 m Weyford Berwick WARING 1870-1946.
Divorce - Harriet Meyers and Isodore Arthur Meyers - I will post the date

Sat 4 Dec 1886 Adelaide Monday Nov 29 1886
" Isidore Arthur Meyers dentist charged by his wife Harriet Meyers with leaving his two children without adequate means of support...defendants had been married for over four years.. resided in Sydney for some time...left his wife and two young children.. not practising his profession.. being supported by his father.. willing to take his wife and children with him"

Will post further.
Phillip

[phillip]

Yoel
For you to note- there are several GORDON Jewish families recorded in The Jewish Victorian:Genealogical Information from the Jewish Newspapers transcribed and edited by Doreen Berger, Publisher Robert Boyd- 2 vols 1861-1871 and 1871-80 - these Gordon areavid Gordon;Michael A Gordon and his wife Esther;Isidor Gordon and his sister Mrs Rachel Witcomb -husband Charles; Debie Gordon husband Maurice Cowen with links to Goodman,Neuenburg,Fisher and Aaron relatives; Myer Harris Gordon marriage to Fanny Abraham.

Whether or not these Gordon relate in any way to George Gordon is not currently able to be confirmed.
Similarly, there are numbers of Asher but nothing to connect them to George Gordon and Sarah Asher.

Albert Goldstein came from Germany according to the Australian record b abt 1825 but I have seen no record which lists his parents or exact place of birth. However, can I suggest that you buy a copy of his death certificate and it would be sensible to do the same for Elizabeth Gordon. The Australian death certificates can contain a wealth of important data including parents names but the data may vary between states.
In the case of the Goldstein last name I also have Goldstein links to my Crawcour lin through marriage but Goldstein or Goldstine families are also listed in Berger. However, again I can see no relationships to Albert Goldstein without having a lot more data on Albert.
Will look further.
Phillip

[phillip]

Yoel
Marriage Mr Alfred H Jones of Geelong to Miss Rosalia Goldstein of Sydney-Sydney Jewish Synagogue-Leader,Melbourne Victoria Sat 14 Sept 1895
Reference to Albert Goldstein in The Sydney Morning Herald Sat 6 May 1893 and Mrs Harriett WARING step daughter of Mrs GOLDSTEIN, Mrs Rosalia GOLDSTEIN -see #26 for the Goldsten/Mumford link

Memoriam- In loving remembrance of darling mamma, Bathsheba GOLDSTEIN who departed this life June 16th 1896.. her loving daughter and son in law Rosalia and A H JONES,Geelong

In sad and devoted remembrance of my dear wife Bathsheba Goldstein who departed this life 16 June 1896, Albert Goldstein
The Sydney Morning Herald Sat 16 June 1900

Phillip

[phillip]

Yoel
Here is a very interesting record which suggests that George Gordon father of Bathsheba maybe a Jew- Rookwood Jewish Cemetery
Batsheva GOLDSTEIN Hebrew name Batsheva bat Yisroel b circa 1831 Age 65 Death 16 June 1896-5 Tammuz 5656 Burial 18 June 1896 Section OGN Row 13 Plot 520
This is Elizabeth Bathsheba daughter of George and Sarah as per the Australian Death Index.
Note the Hebrew name Yisroel for her father George

Here is the Rookwood Jewish Cemetery Record for Albert Goldstein who is buried in the adjacent plot to Bathsheba or reverse side of plot
Albert Goldstein -Hebrew name Avraham ben Yisroel b 1826 Age 75 Death 5 Nov 1901 -23 Cheshvan 5662 Burial 6 Nov 1901 Section OGN Row 13 Plot 521

Food for thought regarding George Gordon/Sarah Asher and their C of E Marriage if they are Jewish.

Phillip

[phillip]

Yoel
See Synagogue Scribes Will Extracts- NA 1909 BARRIS MARKS -Bourke Street Melbourne
Probate 31 May 1893
Spouse Sarah Marks of Castlemaine
Children:
Juliett Rosina BARENT;Adelaide Esther HILL; Amelia Miriam BETHUNE;Florence Rebecca NELSON;Marcus Louis MARKS;Isidore Ernest MARKS;Mathilda Ethel MARKS; Morris Stanley Herbert Gordon MARKS

Phillip