Make sure you know what you are signing up to

[Megan Roberts]

I haven't and won't be doing a DNA test for genealogical purposes, but I just read an article on BBC news business pages about the small print that people may not realise that they have signed up to when they signed up with Ancestry DNA:

* grant Ancestry a "perpetual" licence to use customers' genetic material
* grant the company a "perpetual, royalty-free, worldwide, sublicensable, transferable license" to their DNA data, for purposes including "personalised products and services"
* Ancestry makes reference to "commercial products that may be developed by AncestryDNA using your genetic information"

https://www.
bbc.co.uk/news/business-40045942

[arthurk]

This was indeed the case, but AncestryDNA have now updated their T&Cs to remove the work "perpetual" insofar as it relates to genetic and DNA data: https://www.
ancestry.co.uk/dna/legal/termsAndConditions
The amended T&Cs apply to new customers immediately, and existing ones from 24 Jun 2017.

The word "perpetual" remains in relation to User Provided Content, and as such (in my non-expert opinion) may be similar to what has for a long time been contained in the main site's T&Cs. The word "perpetual" isn't used there, but the section on User Provided Content includes:

This license continues even if you stop using the Websites or the Services. Ancestry may scan, image and/or create an index from the User Provided Content you submit. In this situation, you grant Ancestry and its Group Companies a license to the User Provided Content as described above and Ancestry will own the digital version of documents created by Ancestry as well as any indexed information that Ancestry creates.

- taken from the main site's T&Cs at https://www.
ancestry.co.uk/cs/legal/termsandconditions

I'm not sure what commercial products are meant - maybe some kind of tool for matching or other analysis?

The DNA site's T&Cs include the following assurance, and as far as I can tell there are no equivalent provisions for deletion or destruction in the main site's T&Cs:

AncestryDNA does not claim any ownership rights in the DNA that is submitted for testing. Any Genetic Information (your DNA data and any information derived from it) belongs to the person who provided the DNA sample, subject only to the rights granted to AncestryDNA in this Agreement. You may request Ancestry delete your Genetic Information at any time through our website or by contacting our Member Services. You may also request the destruction of your DNA sample by contacting Member Services.

(From AncestryDNA's T&Cs, URL as above)

I don't, therefore, feel unduly alarmed by the story. There's another article about it on Snopes, the site that looks into urban legends etc: https://www.
snopes.com/ancestry-dna-steal-own

[Guy Etchells]

I suggest you read the terms and conditions fully rather than small extractions
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/dna/legal/termsAndConditions

The word perpetual is still in the terms under section “5. User Provided Content”

“By submitting User Provided Content to AncestryDNA, you grant AncestryDNA and the Ancestry Group Companies a perpetual, royalty-free, worldwide, sublicensable, transferable license to host, transfer, process, analyse, distribute, communicate, and display your submission for the purposes of providing Ancestry’s products and services, conducting Ancestry’s research and product development, enhancing Ancestry’s user experience, and making and offering personalised products and services.”

It is correct section “3. The AncestryDNA Services” does not claim any perpetual licence of submitted DNA but section “5. User Provided Content” could be construed to include the DNA results as being obtained from user supplied material.

I would suggest section “3. The AncestryDNA Services” is basically about the way Ancestry will handle the raw DNA (and the sample) rather than the data extrapolated from it. If users then upload additional information and use the raw data on the site by sharing it with others the perpetual licence kicks in.

In essence the licence is a minefield and users should proceed under the impression they have given Ancestry a perpetual licence rather than they have not.

Cheers
Guy

[Ladkyis]

Thanks Guy, I always assume that if you agree to terms and conditions you should read them first............. The number of people who don't read them amazes me.
I tend to work on the premise that if you don't want your information spread across the internet don't put it up in the first place, but that's just me.

[arthurk]

It is correct section “3. The AncestryDNA Services” does not claim any perpetual licence of submitted DNA but section “5. User Provided Content” could be construed to include the DNA results as being obtained from user supplied material.

I don't think that woud be a correct inference. Section 3 refers to DNA data as "Results", and this is provided by Ancestry. "User Provided Content" is described in the following terms (from Section 5 of the T&Cs):

Portions of the AncestryDNA Website allow you and other Users to contribute material to be displayed on the AncestryDNA Website ("User Provided Content"). We cannot, and expressly do not, accept any liability regarding such User Provided Content (including with respect to its accuracy)......

So there's a clear contrast between the DNA data provided by Ancestry and any content provided by users to supplement that.

I would suggest section “3. The AncestryDNA Services” is basically about the way Ancestry will handle the raw DNA (and the sample) rather than the data extrapolated from it. If users then upload additional information and use the raw data on the site by sharing it with others the perpetual licence kicks in.

I'd agree with this - as I wrote above, although the wording is different, it appears that User Provided Content is subject to broadly similar terms and conditions whether it's put on the DNA site or the main site.

Arthur

[Lesley Robertson]

Somebody at the BBC must read BG! On yesterday's Tech & Business page, the same argument is running. Anc says they don't mean it, the BEEB produced the clause HERE

[arthurk]

Somebody at the BBC must read BG! On yesterday's Tech & Business page, the same argument is running. Anc says they don't mean it, the BEEB produced the clause HERE

Other way round, I think. Megan's initial post was about that story on the BBC site. My comments pointed out that Ancestry had already made the change alluded to (OK, perhaps they felt the complaint had something in it), and also referred to Snopes' assessment of the situation, which Dick Eastman had mentioned in his newsletter.

The BBC site is still showing the original story, which suggests that they haven't taken on board the changes made by Ancestry. The BBC also quote the lawyer who made the complaint:

"Ancestry.com takes ownership of your DNA forever; your ownership of your DNA, on the other hand, is limited in years," he said.

However, AncestryDNA's T&Cs state this:

AncestryDNA does not claim any ownership rights in the DNA that is submitted for testing. Any Genetic Information (your DNA data and any information derived from it) belongs to the person who provided the DNA sample...

In my opinion, it's not that the BBC have read this thread, but that they ought to do so, since the story as currently presented is misleading and unduly alarmist.

[Guy Etchells]

I don't think that woud be a correct inference. Section 3 refers to DNA data as "Results", and this is provided by Ancestry. "User Provided Content" is described in the following terms (from Section 5 of the T&Cs):


So there's a clear contrast between the DNA data provided by Ancestry and any content provided by users to supplement that.


I'd agree with this - as I wrote above, although the wording is different, it appears that User Provided Content is subject to broadly similar terms and conditions whether it's put on the DNA site or the main site.

Arthur

As I stated earlier "I suggest you read the terms and conditions fully rather than small extractions
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/dna/legal/termsAndConditions "

You have missed the additional section 4. Additional User Information.
In that section there is a sentence
"Any sharing of Additional User Information for external research purposes is governed by the Informed Consent." The words Informed Consent are a link to further pages.

When the Informed Consent link is clicked we find
"2. What am I agreeing to if I consent?

By giving consent to participate in the Project, you agree that all information and biological samples that you share with us (as further described below) through your use of our websites, mobile applications, and products that exist now, or in the future (our “Services”) can be collected and used for research consistent with the Purpose until the Project is completed or ends (which may be many years from now). Anyone who has activated an AncestryDNA test at any time can voluntarily participate in this Project. "

This shows that the DNA data is included in Additional User Information so the claim that the DNA results and User Supplied Content are distinctly separate is not as clear cut as you are making out.

The terms and conditions contain contradictions and without studying every page and drilling down through the full text it is likely that users will give up rights without realising they have done so.
I would also suggest the section 5 qoute you give is a standard disclaimer regarding accuracy of content and not ownership or licencing of content


Cheers
Guy

[arthurk]

As I stated earlier "I suggest you read the terms and conditions fully rather than small extractions
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/dna/legal/termsAndConditions "

As this wasn't addressed specifically to me, I thought it was more likely aimed at the OP, who quoted much smaller extracts than I did. However, I did read the full T&Cs, and I consider that the extracts I quoted were an accurate representation of the points relevant to the current discussion. If you think I have misunderstood them, please would you explain how, and if you think there are other parts of the T&Cs which contradict them, please would you give examples.

You have missed the additional section 4. Additional User Information.
In that section there is a sentence
"Any sharing of Additional User Information for external research purposes is governed by the Informed Consent." The words Informed Consent are a link to further pages.

After accusing me of selective quotation, you now do this yourself. The "external research services" referred to here are part of the Ancestry Human Diversity Project (see below), for which Informed Consent is necessary. However, it seems likely that this section is worded so that Ancestry can collect and use a wider variety of data for other purposes. But no-one is forced to submit this information: Section 4 - Additional User Information begins with these words:

You may choose to provide additional information about yourself or your family to Ancestry in response to our email surveys, or through our websites or Ancestry’s mobile application (“Additional User Information”). Additional User Information does not include account, profile, payment, or usage details necessary to provide the Service, or any User Provided Content.

Note that providing this Additional User Information is optional, and it is quite possible to participate in the AncestryDNA service without providing it. I agree that anyone who chooses to provide this kind of information ought to know how it will be handled, but the original news report which led to this thread related to the use of DNA data; mentioning Additional User Information as though it is the same thing seems somewhat misleading.

When the Informed Consent link is clicked we find
"2. What am I agreeing to if I consent?

By giving consent to participate in the Project, you agree that all information and biological samples that you share with us (as further described below) through your use of our websites, mobile applications, and products that exist now, or in the future (our “Services”) can be collected and used for research consistent with the Purpose until the Project is completed or ends (which may be many years from now). Anyone who has activated an AncestryDNA test at any time can voluntarily participate in this Project. "

This shows that the DNA data is included in Additional User Information so the claim that the DNA results and User Supplied Content are distinctly separate is not as clear cut as you are making out.

This is simply not true. DNA data is not included in Additional User Information, unless a user voluntarily chooses to submit it there, and it certainly isn't required in order to do DNA testing.

And the "Project" referred to here isn't the same as the basic DNA testing, but a broader genetic research project run by Ancestry, known in full as the "Ancestry Human Diversity Project". It is also nothing to do with User Provided Content or Additional User Information as described in the T&Cs.

Participation in the Project may indeed involve submission of DNA data and personal information, since that's what the project needs in order to further its research, but participation in the Project is entirely voluntary, and it requires explicit consent as part of the sign-up process. This is why there is an Informed Consent document - this part of it is relevant here:

10. Do I have to consent to the Project?
No, your participation is voluntary. No one is required to participate in the Project. If you choose not to participate in the Project, you can still use our Services, including activating your DNA test and receiving your DNA results.

So, there are a number of distinct elements to the AncestryDNA service, with varying T&Cs:
1. The DNA/genetic data itself - Ancestry does not own this, and users can request its deletion or destruction
2. User Provided Content - as with that provided to other Ancestry sites, Ancestry claims a perpetual licence, but it's up to you what you provide
3. Additional User Information - ditto (I think)
4. The Ancestry Human Diversity Project - governed by the Informed Consent document; participation is voluntary, but because of the nature of the research it is likely to involve sharing of DNA data and personal information

It doesn't help when people get these mixed up and assume that the T&Cs specific to one of these apply to the others too.

Arthur

[Guy Etchells]

As this wasn't addressed specifically to me, I thought it was more likely aimed at the OP, who quoted much smaller extracts than I did. However, I did read the full T&Cs, and I consider that the extracts I quoted were an accurate representation of the points relevant to the current discussion. If you think I have misunderstood them, please would you explain how, and if you think there are other parts of the T&Cs which contradict them, please would you give examples.

When I post on a forum I do not exclude anybody I do sometimes address specific people by name but did not on that occasion.

I already have, as you display by referring to one such part below.

After accusing me of selective quotation, you now do this yourself. The "external research services" referred to here are part of the Ancestry Human Diversity Project (see below), for which Informed Consent is necessary. However, it seems likely that this section is worded so that Ancestry can collect and use a wider variety of data for other purposes. But no-one is forced to submit this information: Section 4 - Additional User Information begins with these words:

Note that providing this Additional User Information is optional, and it is quite possible to participate in the AncestryDNA service without providing it. I agree that anyone who chooses to provide this kind of information ought to know how it will be handled, but the original news report which led to this thread related to the use of DNA data; mentioning Additional User Information as though it is the same thing seems somewhat misleading.

Yes I totally understand the irony of doing so but I also included a link to allow the full terms and conditions to be read if the reader wanted to put my quote into full context.

This shows that the DNA data is included in Additional User Information so the claim that the DNA results and User Supplied Content are distinctly separate is not as clear cut as you are making out.

This is simply not true. DNA data is not included in Additional User Information, unless a user voluntarily chooses to submit it there, and it certainly isn't required in order to do DNA testing.

And the "Project" referred to here isn't the same as the basic DNA testing, but a broader genetic research project run by Ancestry, known in full as the "Ancestry Human Diversity Project". It is also nothing to do with User Provided Content or Additional User Information as described in the T&Cs.

Participation in the Project may indeed involve submission of DNA data and personal information, since that's what the project needs in order to further its research, but participation in the Project is entirely voluntary, and it requires explicit consent as part of the sign-up process. This is why there is an Informed Consent document - this part of it is relevant here:


So, there are a number of distinct elements to the AncestryDNA service, with varying T&Cs:
1. The DNA/genetic data itself - Ancestry does not own this, and users can request its deletion or destruction
2. User Provided Content - as with that provided to other Ancestry sites, Ancestry claims a perpetual licence, but it's up to you what you provide
3. Additional User Information - ditto (I think)
4. The Ancestry Human Diversity Project - governed by the Informed Consent document; participation is voluntary, but because of the nature of the research it is likely to involve sharing of DNA data and personal information

It doesn't help when people get these mixed up and assume that the T&Cs specific to one of these apply to the others too.

Arthur

As I stated the position is not as clear cut as you claim.
I did not say sharing the data was compulsory, or that it was not voluntary, but if you look at the terms and conditions any information voluntary shared may not be removed as soon as it is requested to be removed because it has already been shared with third parties.
It would be misleading to claim anything else.

I would also add Ancestry are free to change their terms and conditions any time the please as they point out in their terms and conditions, it is up to the “user” to ensure they agree with the current terms not simply the ones in force when they initially take part.

The main point is any person who has a DNA test under Ancestry (and indeed any other DNA testing site) needs to be sure to read and understand the terms and conditions of the site.
Cheers
Guy