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  1. #1
    popsit
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    Question Barnett Burns c1805

    Hello,

    This is definitely a brickwall. No one seems to be able to help hence me trying here.

    I have a Bridget Cain marrying a Barnet Burns 1st of June 1835. Event place: Christ Church Greyfriars, Newgate London.
    Barnet Burns always said he was "a british subject" which I have been told he wasn't born in England but if he was born elsewhere (Scotland maybe) and had both or one parent that was born in England then he was permitted to say he was a british subject.
    I am looking for anything other than a marriage for Bridget. Did they have children? Barnet married four times his last wife was Rosina Crowther who we think was married before and had two children with her first husband. They are both (Rosina and Barnet) lodging with the Kay family in the 1841 census, she being a pedlar and he being a mariner. By 1851 census they are lodging with the Pluck family and she is now Mrs Burns. I have digressed a little so as to fill in a bit about Barnet. He also came to New Zealand and married a maori women and had three children with her but later returned to England on his own and she remarried.

    So all boiled down anything anyone can find for me for Bridget Cain would definitely be really appreciated. Thank you.


    Popsit

  2. #2
    Brick wall demolition expert!
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    1851 census Piece 1761 Folio 241 Page 38
    Linton Cambridgeshire
    Rosina Burns lodger married aged 50 professor of music born London, Middlesex
    Barnet Burns lodger married aged 44 lecturer British Subject
    Charlotte Crowther lodger unmarried aged 22 no profession born Bristol – was she Rosina’s daughter?

    There is no marriage in England and Wales for Barnet Burns and Rosina

    Rosina Burns is in the 1861 census as a widow living on her own in Devon
    Piece 1447 Folio 120 Page 29

    Rosina Burns is in the 1871 census as a widow living with her daughter Charlotte A Watts (both widows) and two lodgers in near Chester in Cheshire
    Piece 3727 Folio 68 Page 42

    She seems to have had as much wanderlust as Barnet criss crossing the country! She died in Chester in 1879.


    The marriage certificate for Barnet and Bridget is on Ancestry (London, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754), but it is the pre-1837 form which is very unhelpful, in that the only useful information is that they were both from that parish, both single, both adults, and both unable to sign their names. The witnesses were probably friends rather than church wardens or family, (one of them also made his mark).


    A Bridget Burns aged 34 died in 1839. The death was registered in St. Olaves Union, Southwark. This is a area south of the river Thames, and just east of Tower Bridge, which was part of the London docks area, and was popular with seamen.

    As to whether Bridget and Barnet had any children, I can’t tell you about the period between 18375-1837, but it does not look like they did between 1837-1841. I searched to 1841 on the basis that you said that you had found Barnet and Rosina in the 1841 census, and I can’t be certain that the death record identified about is the Barnet’s wife.

    It is not impossible that they simply split up and he moved on to Rosina. As I said above I haven’t found a marriage record for them.

    British Subject – others may correct me, but:
    England is not Britain it is simply one part of it. So if you are born in England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland you are British. The term British Subject to me implies that he was born overseas to British parents, or perhaps just a British father/mother. I am not certain in those days if a mother would have passed on nationality to a child. So it could be that his father was in the army, or that his father was a sailor, or that perhaps he had gone to a colony such as New Zealand.

  3. #3
    Super Moderator - Completely bonkers and will never change.
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    If you put Barnet Burns into a search engine you should get four hits, one of which is Wikipedia which says that Barnet was likely the one baptised in Kirkby Ireleth in the county of Cumbria in 1805. (Though it would have been the county of Cumberland in 1805. )

    Pam
    Vulcan XH558 - “Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.”

  4. #4
    Dundee10
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    Just adding that prior to the Citizenship Acts of 1948 in Australia and New Zealand we did not have our own national identity and everyone was a British Subject.

    Do you not believe that Barnet was born in Ireland?

    https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/ne...S19270516.2.97

    https://www.enzb.auckland.ac.nz/docum...=0&action=null

    Perhaps they thought he was Irish because that was where his booklet was first published.

  5. #5
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    George BURNS was baptised 25 Nov 1805 Kirby Ireleth Cumberland s/o George & Ann BURNS

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by geneius View Post
    George BURNS was baptised 25 Nov 1805 Kirby Ireleth Cumberland s/o George & Ann BURNS
    Well, there's a surprise. Wikipedia being wrong.
    Though I suppose George could have changed his name to Barnet. Loads of other people changed their names, so why not George. (Sorry, but I haven't time to look for him through the census and other records. Especially as Cumberland is like a foreign country to me. Not familiar with it at all. )

    Pam
    Vulcan XH558 - “Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.”

  7. #7

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    Is this a different Barnet??? Apologies if I'm muddying the waters or confusing things, but I did think it at least worth mentioning there were possibly?? two Barnet Burns with a history in New Zealand.

    https://www.teara.govt.nz/en/biograph...0/burns-barnet

    https://www.teara.govt.nz/en/artwork/26788/barnet-burns
    Alma

  8. #8

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    I am looking for anything other than a marriage for Bridget. Did they have children? Barnet married four times his last wife was Rosina Crowther who we think was married before and had two children with her first husband. They are both (Rosina and Barnet) lodging with the Kay family in the 1841 census, she being a pedlar and he being a mariner. By 1851 census they are lodging with the Pluck family and she is now Mrs Burns. I have digressed a little so as to fill in a bit about Barnet. He also came to New Zealand and married a maori women and had three children with her but later returned to England on his own and she remarried.
    Hi Popsit, do you have a timeline for Barnet, did he marry the Maori lady before marrying his subsequent wives? You say 'he also came to New Zealand and married a Maori woman and had three children' was that before he married Bridget? Do you know if he remained in England after returning, or did he go back to New Zealand?
    Alma

  9. #9
    Super Moderator christanel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dundee10 View Post
    Do you not believe that Barnet was born in Ireland?

    https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/ne...S19270516.2.97

    https://www.enzb.auckland.ac.nz/docum...=0&action=null

    Perhaps they thought he was Irish because that was where his booklet was first published.
    This one says claining to be born in Liverpool. https://www.teara.govt.nz/en/biograph...0/burns-barnet

    Christina
    Sometimes paranoia is just having all the facts.
    William Burroughs

  10. #10
    Super Moderator christanel's Avatar
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    Born 1805? Cumberland? Ireland? Lancashire?
    1819 to sea. Jamaica.
    Returned to England and sent to the Lancastrian school.
    1827 Sailed in Wilna to Rio de Janiero then the Nimrod to Sydney
    Worked at Bank of Australia for 2 years
    1830 to NZ trading flax. There 8 months then back to Sydney
    1831 february returned to NZ. married chief's daughter.
    1832 - 1834 traded flax to Sydney
    1834 to Sydney. Son Hoti Waiti born after Barnett's departure.
    1835 February to England.
    1837 i July married Bridget Cain
    May 1826 Lecture in Chichester. Derided.
    1858 last lecture. Seriously ill for 3 months
    1859 Las reference to Barnett Burns the tattoed showman.

    There are numerous Barnett Burns to contend with.
    1839 Death of Bridget Burns?
    1841 have to account for Barnett Burns in the Manchester and Salford Directories. A fustian firer.
    1841 Have to account for the Barnett Burns labourer, born c1801 in the 1841 Scotland census with Mrs. Burns and children Ann 15, Hugh, 13, Rose 8, Thomas 5.
    1842 2 Dec. have to account for the Barnett Burns in the Freemason's Lodge records in Ireland.

    Christina
    Sometimes paranoia is just having all the facts.
    William Burroughs

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