Where do I go from here??

[Jane Gee]

I cannot at the moment see the wood for the trees and would appreciate advice

I after 30+ years of searching think I have found my paternal grandmothers birth certificate (Big thanks to Almach). I know her birthday was 24July 1881/82 We knew here as Annie Mary Whitbread bought up by her 2 spinster aunts Mary (1839-1911) & Elizabeth Whitbread (1848-1931) in Essex, and London area .
Her father Thomas (1844-1885) a Pawnbroker had to sleep on the premises and couldn't care for his "daughter" as her mother died when she was born Thomas died of pneumonia when grandma was 3 this checked out apart from the fact he died of the DTs. I have tracked the census for my grandmother and her "father" also discovering his wife Annie actually died in Bexley Aslyum in 1913. I have her medical records she seemed worried about her little boy?

However all this information has been thrown into disarray with the discovery of the following birth certificate

24th July 1881 Annie Mary Morley mother Elizabeth Morley nee Whitbread father James Henry Morley Sgt 11th Battery Royal artlliery 232 Upper Street Islington. To be fair my mum always thought that her mother in law was illegitimate and probably the daughter of Mary or Elizabeth. Grandma knew my parents in 1964 asked for a search at Somerset House and that they couldn't find her birth certificate but either grandma didn't know why or just wasn't saying.

I have found no baptisms for the Whitbread family they were born around Hampstead area and lived in or around London. I have all birth certificates for the Whitbread family which wasn't too difficult as we knew their mother was nee Parr.

So far I cannot find a marriage for Elizabeth to James Morley (suspect this was made up) I have details of a James Henry Morley's possible career in the Royal Artillery but can only speculate it could be him as no mention is made of an illegitimate child.
I am in touch with a descendant of James Henrys and she is waiting to hear from a cousin to see if any oral history can be found on the Morley Whitbread connection.

Thomas, Elizabeth, and Mary had other brothers but their brother George Whitbread (1842-1932)
(is an interesting character) Uncle George suddenly decided to use the middle name of Morley even though his birth certificate doesn't mention it he also in 1885 at a court trial states he was late of the Royal artillery so there is a "loose" connection to James Henry. Dad said Uncle George told him he was a batman in the army and served in the desert but wasn't told which part of the army we only discovered it was possibly the Royal Artillery in recent years. I would say he left the army before 1881 as he married in October 1881 and was a clerk in the 1881 census living with his mother and sisters in London.


Please can someone advise me as to steps take to prove this birth certificates is my grandmother as I am unsure where to go next an objective view would be gratefully received. One last note Dad said grandma "leaned" towards Non conformist.

Please feel free to ask if I have checked census wills etc as I have amassed lots of these and can give an answer without wasting peoples time looking when I already have copies.

[geneius]

James Henry Morley Sgt 11th Battery Royal artlliery

I can see one JHM who on reading the attestation papers 'fits' the bill, he is in the UK at the time of the birth of Annie Mary
he marries and has children by another person

JHMorley b 1856 Winchelsea. The record is on FMP children listed have been baptised in the Catholic faith

RG11; Piece: 745; Folio: 58; Page: 25 RA Woolwich Dock, states he is unmarried

Here is his marriage?

Name: Mary Kelly
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec, 1880
Registration district: Athlone, Ireland
Volume: 3 Page Number: 3
FHL Film Number: 101253

So far I cannot find a marriage for Elizabeth to James Morley

I cannot find a marriage in the right time frame

I would say he left the army before 1881 as he married in October 1881 and was a clerk in the 1881 census living with his mother and sisters in London.

Looking at different Army records? The record I looked at is in the right place at the right time and was in the army until 1897!

Have you found Elizabeth on the 1881 census?

I suspect you already have all this info!

[Jane Gee]

I can see one JHM who on reading the attestation papers 'fits' the bill, he is in the UK at the time of the birth of Annie Mary
he marries and has children by another person

JHMorley b 1856 Winchelsea. The record is on FMP children listed have been baptised in the Catholic faith

RG11; Piece: 745; Folio: 58; Page: 25 RA Woolwich Dock, states he is unmarried

Here is his marriage?

Name: Mary Kelly
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec, 1880
Registration district: Athlone, Ireland
Volume: 3 Page Number: 3
FHL Film Number: 101253

I cannot find a marriage in the right time frame



Looking at different Army records? The record I looked at is in the right place at the right time and was in the army until 1897!

Have you found Elizabeth on the 1881 census?

I suspect you already have all this info!

Hi Thank you for your reply I have been in touch with a descendant of James Henrys and she consulted with her cousin re when and where James Henry would have been when my grandmother was conceived and born and they think that unless she was born prematurely ie 7 months then James Henry can be ruled out. He was in London around January time but out of the country prior to this so it looks like I will be to go back to the drawing board. I want to see if I can find my grandmothers uncle George as he says he was in the Royal artillery. Please don't worry about Uncle George he is a pain to find out details about twists and turns all the time!!!

[geneius]

The record I am looking at indicates that in the period 25 Feb 1880 - 3 Feb 1886 he was 'Home'

On 3 April 1881 the Unit is recorded as being in Woolwich

There is a tree on ancestry whicvh suggests George Morley Whitbread died 2 March 1892, but no paperwork link, so does the owner know this info?

[Jane Gee]

The record I am looking at indicates that in the period 25 Feb 1880 - 3 Feb 1886 he was 'Home'

On 3 April 1881 the Unit is recorded as being in Woolwich

There is a tree on ancestry whicvh suggests George Morley Whitbread died 2 March 1892, but no paperwork link, so does the owner know this info?

I have his death certificate but its earlier than the above plus his burial record. I was interested in the information for James Henry and will go back and look although I am surprised Elizabeth nee Whitbread said the father of Annie was James Henry because it doesn't look as if they were married and how could she name him on the certificate legally I am unsure.

[geneius]

It is only n mor4e recent years that the protocol for registering the birth of a child requires both persons to be named to attend the Registrars Officer. My husband registered the birth of our 2nd child just had a piece of paper with the relevant details on, just to make sure he gave her the decided names!

If the child was born 'out of area' and the family isn't known, the information given and recorded is what is believed to be correct. Many a marriage certificate has a fictious father!

I suspect that the couple never married, the info was for respectability.

[Jane Gee]

It is only n mor4e recent years that the protocol for registering the birth of a child requires both persons to be named to attend the Registrars Officer. My husband registered the birth of our 2nd child just had a piece of paper with the relevant details on, just to make sure he gave her the decided names!

If the child was born 'out of area' and the family isn't known, the information given and recorded is what is believed to be correct. Many a marriage certificate has a fictious father!

I suspect that the couple never married, the info was for respectability.

Hi Geneius

I think so too I do think the certificate is my grandma possibly James Henry was the father I just want to see if Uncle George was in the same regiment nothing is coming up on any of the sites that suggests he was in the Royal artillery as he claimed. Thank you for your thoughts and advice it is much appreciated having a second opinionx

[geneius]

I have looked for 'Uncle George'


Evidence of age & birth stated by mother to join Civil Service (British Civil Service Evidence Of Age ) birth date 7 January 1849

Marriage 8 October 1881 to Frances Georgette Cross at Shoreditch?

Is this your man?https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/brow...=t18650508-536

1891
RG12; Piece: 86; Folio: 36; Page: 6
57 Syt James St Westminster
George Whitbread 40 Housekeeper Hampstead
Frances G Whitbread 38
James D Lambert 55 Lodger

1911
7 Mowbray Road, Upper Norwood
Francis Whitbread 59 Cook
George Whitbread 60 Butler

1919 - 1927 They can be found on the Electoral Register

France G Whitbread
Birth Date: abt 1851
Date of Registration: Sep 1927
Age at Death: 76
Registration district: Chelsea
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1a Page: 344

George Whitbread
Birth Date: abt 1842
Date of Registration: Mar 1932
Age at Death: 90
Registration district: Chelsea
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1a Page: 607

Maybe the RA was a tall story as it appears other than joining the Civil Service, George was in service

[Jane Gee]

I have looked for 'Uncle George'


Evidence of age & birth stated by mother to join Civil Service (British Civil Service Evidence Of Age ) birth date 7 January 1849

Marriage 8 October 1881 to Frances Georgette Cross at Shoreditch?

Is this your man?https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/brow...=t18650508-536

1891
RG12; Piece: 86; Folio: 36; Page: 6
57 Syt James St Westminster
George Whitbread 40 Housekeeper Hampstead
Frances G Whitbread 38
James D Lambert 55 Lodger

1911
7 Mowbray Road, Upper Norwood
Francis Whitbread 59 Cook
George Whitbread 60 Butler

1919 - 1927 They can be found on the Electoral Register

France G Whitbread
Birth Date: abt 1851
Date of Registration: Sep 1927
Age at Death: 76
Registration district: Chelsea
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1a Page: 344

George Whitbread
Birth Date: abt 1842
Date of Registration: Mar 1932
Age at Death: 90
Registration district: Chelsea
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1a Page: 607

Maybe the RA was a tall story as it appears other than joining the Civil Service, George was in service

Hi

Thank you for this I have a copy of the declaration by Georges mother about his date of birth which is completely different to his birth certificate how on earth you could dare make a declaration like this and get away with it I will never know. I do know George told my father he was in the army and a batman serving in the desert. So I wont completely dismiss this.
I did wonder if these were two different people but we came on the forum to the conclusion probably not! Thank goodness when I joined the Civil Service in 1971 where I had to give them details of my grandparents that they didn't check further back or I may not have got in!!

I am deter mind to see what I can find out of about George re the army so more digging and then a very long over due visit to the National archives where I usually have some success in something.

[geneius]

George told my father he was in the army and a batman serving in the desert

Born 1842, so your looking 1858 onwards assuming he was 16 on joining up! He is not declaring Army Pensioner on the census returns , he can be found on census each decade and if he was the only George Morley Whitbread appeared to have a criminal record
]George Money Whitbread were indicted for stealing sugar other articles, the property the Civil Service Co-operative Society tLimited). Clark
30 October 1885 - Globe - London, London, England

Article actually states Morley

when I joined the Civil Service in 1971

Mine in 1966 would have shown nothing but Ag Labs.......remember 3 misdemeanors?