No idea where to look

[hunterterri58]

The nine children I listed in my post number 4 all have a mother whose maiden name was “Chapman”. I identified these by using the GRO’s search index, which is a relatively new resource started up last year, and now lets us see the mother’s maiden in the index of the registers pre 1911. You have to register to use it, but it’s free: https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/ All you do is click on the button which says “order certificates online” which of course you do NOT have to buy any.

With a name like Howell it is very difficult unless you have family knowledge passed down, or you can find them together. Don’t forget that there could be a variety of spellings such as Howel or Howells.

If you look at marriage certificates you might the names of witnesses which look convince that they are siblings of one another.

As far as occupations go I tend to view this with a healthy degree of cynicism – in my tree we have one chap who was everything from a farm labourer to a gentleman to a vet to a jockey and all shades in between before being found dead on the green outside the poor house.

Ellen Amelia is definitely NOT part of the family.

Just checked again and yet If you look at George Howells christening in 1865 you can see that three children are listed, George, Arthur and Ellen amelia. They are all children of John and Harriet Howell, all on the same day, all live at same address and all have fathers occupation as servant. To me it would seem that Ellen Amelia is part of the family but I would appreciate any feedback as it does seem strange. What happened to William for instance?

[Megan Roberts]

I agree that there is a real mystery hear about Ellen Amelia.

Looking at the parish baptism record on Ancestry for Holy Trinity Church, Chelsea there are 3 children (George, Arthur, and Ellen Amelia) baptised together as the children of John and Harriet who were living 75 Alford Place. So your assertion that Ellen Amelia is their daughter looks right.

However, there is only one birth registered and that is:
Howell Ellen Amelia- GRO Reference: 1864 J Quarter in ST LUKE CHELSEA Volume 01A Page 217 – Mother’s maiden Name Summorville

Now it is possible that the register is wrong, but if it I were you I would want to see her birth certificate to see what it says.


Possible lead:
London Metropolitan Archives on Ancestry
Harriet Susan Howell baptised 25 Jul 1841 at Bloomsbury St George daughter of John & Harriet
Harriet Susan Howell married Thomas Ashby 12 Jan 1867 Holy Trinity Marylebone Road
Harriet S Ashby died 1921

[hunterterri58]

I agree that there is a real mystery hear about Ellen Amelia.

Looking at the parish baptism record on Ancestry for Holy Trinity Church, Chelsea there are 3 children (George, Arthur, and Ellen Amelia) baptised together as the children of John and Harriet who were living 75 Alford Place. So your assertion that Ellen Amelia is their daughter looks right.

However, there is only one birth registered and that is:
Howell Ellen Amelia- GRO Reference: 1864 J Quarter in ST LUKE CHELSEA Volume 01A Page 217 – Mother’s maiden Name Summorville

Now it is possible that the register is wrong, but if it I were you I would want to see her birth certificate to see what it says.


Possible lead:
London Metropolitan Archives on Ancestry
Harriet Susan Howell baptised 25 Jul 1841 at Bloomsbury St George daughter of John & Harriet
Harriet Susan Howell married Thomas Ashby 12 Jan 1867 Holy Trinity Marylebone Road
Harriet S Ashby died 1921

Harriet Susan has mothers maiden name as Francis so I don't think she is one of theirs. I will send for the birth certificate to see what that brings.

Thank you

[Dundee10]

Probable marriage for John HOWELL and Harriet FRANCIS in 1840 St Pancras. Baptisms for Harriet Susan (1841) and Frederick John (1844) show father as a Coachman. In 1851 they are living in Woodford, Essex.

In 1871 I have found Harriet. She is alone and does not say she is a widow. She is a laundress. She again only gives Essex as her place of birth.

Isn't Harriet in Chelsea with George, Arthur, and William?

Piece: 88; Folio: 49; Page Number: 92

[hunterterri58]

Probable marriage for John HOWELL and Harriet FRANCIS in 1840 St Pancras. Baptisms for Harriet Susan (1841) and Frederick John (1844) show father as a Coachman. In 1851 they are living in Woodford, Essex.



Isn't Harriet in Chelsea with George, Arthur, and William?

Piece: 88; Folio: 49; Page Number: 92

Yes she is in Chelsea. She is definately the wife of John Howell and living with George Arthur and William in 1851. THere seem to be a couple of John and Harriets around. The Essex thing is interesting though, but I am not sure if it is the right couple at all. I have George's birth certificate and John is a servant.

[hunterterri58]

I agree that there is a real mystery hear about Ellen Amelia.

Looking at the parish baptism record on Ancestry for Holy Trinity Church, Chelsea there are 3 children (George, Arthur, and Ellen Amelia) baptised together as the children of John and Harriet who were living 75 Alford Place. So your assertion that Ellen Amelia is their daughter looks right.

However, there is only one birth registered and that is:
Howell Ellen Amelia- GRO Reference: 1864 J Quarter in ST LUKE CHELSEA Volume 01A Page 217 – Mother’s maiden Name Summorville

Now it is possible that the register is wrong, but if it I were you I would want to see her birth certificate to see what it says.


Possible lead:
London Metropolitan Archives on Ancestry
Harriet Susan Howell baptised 25 Jul 1841 at Bloomsbury St George daughter of John & Harriet
Harriet Susan Howell married Thomas Ashby 12 Jan 1867 Holy Trinity Marylebone Road
Harriet S Ashby died 1921

Birth certificate for Ellen Amelia has arrived and mother is Amelia Somerville! so this is not their child!

[hunterterri58]

Hello
So John Howell says all the way through that he is from Suffolk, but does not elaborate! I cannot trace him beyond 1851 census. He married Harriet Chapman from Sturmere in Essex. I have tried to look for any John Howells, born to a John Howell, a gardener in suffolk, but cannot find anything.

Any thoughts?

Teresa

[Dundee10]

The Essex thing is interesting though, but I am not sure if it is the right couple at all. I have George's birth certificate and John is a servant.

I posted the John HOWELL and Harriet FRANCIS marriage and census details to show that they are a different family and Harriet Susan is their child and not a child of your couple.

What is the date of birth for Ellen Amelia on the certificate?

[hunterterri58]

I posted the John HOWELL and Harriet FRANCIS marriage and census details to show that they are a different family and Harriet Susan is their child and not a child of your couple.

What is the date of birth for Ellen Amelia on the certificate?

Yes you did and thank you.

Ellen Amelia's date of birth is 28th April 1864 on the certificate.

[Dundee10]

Ellen Amelia's date of birth is 28th April 1864 on the certificate.

So she probably is the same child baptised together with George and Arthur as the birthdate matches. I think she may be their granddaughter and the daughter of Amelia born 1846.