John Grindlay b.abt1813-who were his parents?

[Barry364]

The subject of my problem is the John Grindlay who married Isabella Laing Dalrymple 25 Jun 1844 Carriden, West Lothian. After his marriage his history is pretty clear (see below). When he died 22 Apr 1844 Falkirk, the informant, their 24 year old youngest son George, gave that his father's father's name was John Grindlay, grocer, and that his father's mother's surname was Moore (but he obviously didn't know her given name, as the record just has a line in front of Moore.

In 1851 John & Isabella Grindlay -with one daughter- were in Bridgeness Village, Cowdenhill, Carriden, he said to be born in Gorbals, Glasgow, a 'Teacher Of Music Family Clerk At Coilling' (sic). (Their other two children of the time were with their grandparents (Samuel & Isabella Dalrymple) in Muirhouses that day.)

In 1861 the growing family was in Falkirk, Graham's Road - but strangely both 'Johns' in that family have been enumerated as 'James', but in all other aspects correct; the head born Glasgow, 'Timekeeper at Foundry'.

In 1871 they were at 4 Canal Bank, Falkirk; John Grindlay born Gorbals, Lanarkshire, 'Weighing Clerk'.
In 1881 they were at Mungalend Road (also spelt Mungallend), Falkirk; John Grindlay's occupation 'Time Keeper'.

There is a possible find in 1841 for his family at 7 Oxford Lane, Gorbals, Glasgow; their surname enumerated as 'Grindly', comprising the father, John, a warehouseman -no sign of a wife- and children: John (said to be born abt 1816), Robert (b. abt 1821), Thomas (b.abt. 1822), Elizabeth (b.abt.1824), Andrew (b.abt 1829) & William (b.abt 1832). Theson John b.abt 1816 is said to have been a 'Calico Printer Journeyman' - could he have become the 'teacher of music in 1851' and foundry timekeeper in later life?

The other thing that I wonder about, is that in 1851, in Bridgeness Village, Cowdenhill, Carriden, their immediate nextdoor neighbour was one Janet Grindlay, head, said to be born about 1794 Bo'ness, Linlithgowshire.
With her she had 3 Grindlay children, all said to be born Govan, Glasgow: Elizabeth, niece (b. abt. 1823), Andrew, nephew, grocer's and victualler's assistant (b.abt 1827), and William, nephew, grocer's assistant (b. abt. 1831). Those three children's names and ages are a fair match for the 3 'Grindly' children with those names in 1841 at 7 Oxford Lane, Gorbals, Glasgow - could they be the same family?
Might she have been John Grindlay's father's sister (to be aunt to those children), or even his mother (ie. Janet Moore), although, then, she could hardly have been aunt of those children??

Is the fact that George Grindlay didn't know his grandmother's name perhaps an an indication that she died in his father's youth, or even that the name of Moore, that he put on the death record, is a red-herring?

So who were John Grindlay's parents (he born Gorbals abt 1813, died Falkirk 1884)?
I can't find any John Grindlay, grocer, nor any marriage of any John Grindlay to a spouse with the maiden name of Moore?
Can anyone identify my John Grindlay's parents, or suggest a way of cracking my brick wall?

many thanks, Barry

[Lesley Robertson]

Barry can you check the dates you've given? I think there's a typo or two - e.g. In para 1 you say that John died in 1844, but in the last para 1884... I assume that the latter is correct.

[Barry364]

Sorry all, my typo, the 1884 date is the correct one.
John Grindlay died 22 Apr 1884 Falkirk, said to be 70 years old.

One other thing, looking for that Janet Grindlay, found in Cowdenhillin 1851 (she was given to have been unmarried),
....well, in 1841 there is a Janet Grindlay, Head, Ind., in Cowdenhill, said to be 36 years old then (so born abt. 1805), with a 30 year old George Gibson, clerk, born England, in the same household. (I thought I'd try to see if he was significant, and there was a George Gibson who married a Mary Grindlay 6 Apr 1840 Saint Cuthberts, Edinburgh - but I don't know if he has any bearing in this case. I got no further with George Gibson.)

[janbooth]

Barry,

Scotland's People website has the baptismal record of a John GRINDLAY at Gorbals on 19 September 1813 son of John GRINDLAY & Catharine Ramsay WILLOX. To view the full baptismal record you would have to purchase some credits. The same site also shows the marriage record of John & Catharine on 28 February 1812 at Glasgow. Looking at this original record should hopefully give you extra information enabling you to go even further back.

Janet

[Annalies]

I was going to ask if you had checked the baptisms in Scotland, but Janet has done well to do a search and find it quite quickly on Scotland's People. You might find more from the marriage of John and Catherine, although most marriages pre 1855 don't state too much about the groom but they often mention the bride's father's name. I would now be searching for John Grindlay snr's death and hoping it is after 1855 so it lists parents names. Look also for Catherine Grindlay's death, and also both of them in the census, and don't forget to check for a Will for surname Grindlay and see what it throws out. Scotland's People can give you so much.

Two other great sources, especially with your ancestors Barry because of their occupations, are the Scottish newspapers and the Scottish gazettes, both of which have a high probability of providing your with more information. For example you might find the obituary of John Grindlay snr, or similar.

[Barry364]

Thank you Janet, for ages I've believed that he was indeed the son of John Grindlay & Catharine Ramsay Willox -that is until I got the image of his death record, where son George had other ideas!

I don't have the image of that baptism record (I should perhaps do as you suggest), but I do have the image of his parent's marriage. John Grindlay & Catharine Ramsay Willox married 28 Feb 1812 Glasgow, but that John Grindlay would appear to have had the occupation of 'warper' (presumably in the textile industry) - of course he could have been a grocer later, or perhaps George was wrong? Otherwise date and place certainly fit.

I'm not sure I can just assume that George was wrong though. Ho hum.
--Barry--

[Lesley Robertson]

"Is the fact that George Grindlay didn't know his grandmother's name perhaps an an indication that she died in his father's youth, or even that the name of Moore, that he put on the death record, is a red-herring? "

Sorry, I've just noticed this question. I think it would be dangerous to do that. She might just have died during George's youth rather than his father's. Remember how much more formal people were - she would have been known to the family by some variation on Mother and Grandmother, and to others as "Mrs" (even into the 20th century). If she was the last of her generation to die, it's possible that nobody used her actual name in George's hearing while she was still alive.

My grandfather's brother got his own mother's name partly wrong on a death certificate, probably because she did die when they were young - people often didn't like admitting that they didn't know...

[Annalies]

Barry, death records are the most unreliable of all vital records and therefore what the informant states holds very little weight, very little.

[Lesley Robertson]

I wouldn't put it quite as strongly as Annalies, but data recorded during the lifetime of an individual can usually be treated as more reliable. Then, info given by children is more reliable than that from grandchildren, etc.

As now, people didn't always stay in the same occupation. Maybe he always wanted to be a grocer and saved up, maybe he got a chance or inherited (what did his wife's family do? Or his (childless) uncles?).

[Barry364]

Thank you Annalies, for those suggestions on where to look next, much appreciated!
Thank you Annalies & Leslie both, for your thoughts that I should treat son George's input to his father's death record with sceptacism. Perhaps that is a red-herring after all.

So if I revert to the thought (for the moment), that John Grindlay had indeed perhaps been that son of John Grindlay & Catharine Ramsay Willox - he baptised 19 Sep 1813 Gorbals.
Cathrine Ramsay Willox (sic) b. 1 Oct 1789 Glasgow was the daughter of William Willox & Mary McDonald (the 'Ramsay' and 'McDonald' names repeat in the names given to other children); she married John Grindlay, warper, 28 Feb 1812 Glasgow.

I've found no sign of her, Catharine, after the baptism of their last child (William Shead McDondald Grindlay bapt. 17 Apr 1831 Gorbals), so she presumably died sometime between 1831 -1841 - but I haven't found that proof.
The father, John Snr., could well be he found in 1841 at 7 Oxford lane, Gorbals, but of him I've also not found any futher sure sign.

They had a stack of children:
#1 John b. 1813 (above), in 1841 possibly he with his father in Gorbals, and thereafter positively identified from his marriage through to death.
#2 Robert, baptised 25 Dec 1814 Gorbals, in 1841 possibly he with his father, no sign after that.
#3 Thomas, baptised 24 May 1818 Gorbals, in 1841 possibly he with his father, no sign after that.
#4 Janet, baptised 23 Jan 1820 Gorbals, not found after that (perhaps died before 1841).
#5 James, baptised 13 May 1821 Gorbals, not found after that (perhaps died before 1841)
#6 Elizabeth, baptised 12 May 1822 Gorbals, in 1841 possibly she with her father, and in 1851 possible she with other siblings with their aunt, Janet Grindlay, in Carriden (next door to John Grindlay and his wife Isabella Dalrymple & family), but not found after that.
#7 Helen, baptised 17 Oct 1824 Gorbals, in 1841 possibly house servant to family Adams at 108 Argyle St, Glasgow; but not found after that (perhaps married, or died??).
#8 Andrew Ramsay, baptised 7 Dec 1828 (with his mother's middle name, I think probably a grandparent's family name, but unproven), in 1841 possibly he with his father, and in 1851 possibly he with other siblings with their aunt, Janet Grindlay, in Carriden (next door to John Grindlay and his wife Isabella Dalrymple & family), but not found after that.
#9 William Shead MacDonald, baptised 17 Apr 1831 Gorbals as William Shead Grindlay, but his marriage record gives the full William Shead MacDonald Grindlay name -McDonald being his mother's mother's surname - (he married 13 Aug 1865 Walker, Northumberland to Margaret Webster Duncan), in 1841 he too possibly with his father, and in 1851 possibly he with other siblings with their aunt, Janet Grindlay, in Carriden (next door to John Grindlay and his wife Isabella Dalrymple & family). I haven't found him after 1891 (no sign of his death in England or Scotland), but in 1911 his wife was a widow in Rosehill-on-Tyne, Wallsend, Northumberland, and died there in 1912.

So that is quite a lot of offspring; so I find it strange that they are so difficult to pin down!
I somehow think, that the spinster Janet Grindlay, in 1851 next door to John Grindlay & Isabella Dalrymple, with her niece and nephews who so closely match the 'Grindly' children of John 'Grindly' in Gorbals in 1841, must have been that John Grindly's/Grindlays sister, ...and she apparantly born Bo'ness. That clue has led me nowhere too.

Difficult..:-/

Any further thoughts or flshes of inspiration accepted with gratitude.

regards, Barry