Help to find a baptism

[hunterterri58]

I've just been scrutinising Mary Ann's marriage certificate and I'd be interested to know if anyone else reads Mary Ann's signature as FRYER, as I can definitely see a downward stroke. Could FRYER in a Nottinghamshire accent be heard as FREER?

Yes I have thought that and Fryer comes up a lot when you put in Freer so they maybe could sound the same.

Teresa

[hunterterri58]

The census have Harry born Chelsea and Alfred Battersea, Wandsworth was the registration district for Battersea.

These are the only births I've found in the right reg districts.

HOWELL, HARRY, MMN LUDLAM
GRO Reference: 1878 D Quarter in CHELSEA Volume 01A Page 301

HOWELL, ALFRED LUDLAM
GRO Reference: 1884 J Quarter in WANDSWORTH Volume 01D Page 640

I haven't found a marriage between Howell/Ludlam

I'm probably clutching at straws but I don't have anything else to clutch

Sorry to sound like a dweeb but I am a bit confused now. Are you thinking that Mary Ann was not a Freer or a Fryer, but a Ludlam? I am struggling to follow. Sorry. Mary married George Howell and I have his parents marriage certificate John Howell and Harriet Chapman, although they are illusive also!!!!

I have George and Mary Ann's children born in the areas you are mentioning, but I am not understanding the abbreviation MMN?

Thanks and I look forward to hearing some more. I am not so good at this as you all.

Teresa

[almach]

Hi Teresa, this is how I see it:

First MMN = Mother's Maiden Name.

Two of Mary Ann and George's children appear to have been registered with MMN Ludlam, they are Harry and Alfred. It would be interesting to know who registered the births with MMN Freer and who with MMN Ludlam, perhaps George registered under one name and Mary Ann under the other.

As I see it Mary Ann's parents are Thomas Ludlam who is described as a porter on 1871 census, and possibly on 1881 (unclear whether it says porter or printer, but I'm thinking it's probably porter) and Catherine Weston who is Thomas' second wife/partner, not sure as yet whether they married, as haven't found a definite marriage for them, but Catherine/Katherine does seem to have been registered Ludlam on her death certificate. I think the confusion surrounds Mary Ann's first marriage, she seems to have married a Freer who died soon after, Mary Ann is described as a spinster on her marriage to George Howell when in fact I think she was a widow, no idea why that would be, other than either an error by the minister or a misunderstanding, whatever she was free to marry as Thomas Freer died in 1875.

Mary Ann Ludlam's birth registered in Radford, Nottinghamshire: Mary Ann LUDLAM Sept 1852 (see post #26)
1861 she's on census with parents and siblings (see #18)
1872 Mary Ann Ludlam married Thomas Henry Freer (see#21)
They apear to have had a daughter, Alice, in 1873 (see #21). Alice is on the 1881 census with Mary Ann's parents (see #18)
Thomas Henry Freer died age 21yrs in 1875 (see #22)
Mary Ann Ludlam married George Howell in 1877.

I hope that helps you understand the chain of events as I see it, it does all look probable. You may well wonder why her father was entered as Thomas Freer on her marriage to George Howell, her name then was Freer and when the minister asked her father's name she will have answered Thomas, so he was entered as Thomas Freer. Back then these things happened, a lot of people couldn't read, so had little idea of what was being entered on certificates, many errors were made and I think most of us have examples in our own family research.

If you want more clarification, do ask. I have written this hurriedly so hope it makes sense.

[almach]

You may not be familiar with this web site where you are able to enter birth details and it will give MMN. You need to register to use it, it is a free site, and where I got MMN from. https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/c...ates/login.asp

[hunterterri58]

You may not be familiar with this web site where you are able to enter birth details and it will give MMN. You need to register to use it, it is a free site, and where I got MMN from. https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/c...ates/login.asp

Thank you. I have George Alfred Howell Birth certificate as he is my great grandfather and Mary Ann is definately a Freer on there. I have ordered the others to see who registered them as you suggested.

[hunterterri58]

It looks like Thomas was married twice.
1841, Oadby, Leicestershire. HO107; Piece: 599; Book: 6; Enumeration District: 10; Page: 1
All born in County
Thomas Ludlam 25
Elizebeth Ludlam 25
William Ludlam 3
Harriott Ludlam 1
James Hunt 45
William Brunley 2

Looks promising too!

[hunterterri58]

I've just come upon a family tree on Ancestry which has Thomas Ludlam's death certificate, tree name: Billings/Garton

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~

1891, RG12; Piece: 2529; Folio: 103; Page: 29;
Catherine Ludlam 62, illness.
Cecilia Ludlam 28
Louisa Ludlam 21
Elizabeth Snow 17
Bernard J Bownes 15

Katherine Ludlam age 62, death registered 4th qrt, Leicester, vol 7a, page 112.

I am trying to locate that tree. HOw do I do that please? I am trying a search of the Family Trees but can't see it.

[hunterterri58]

Now this is interesting. Could it be Mary Ann????? Or is it a coincidence!

1861, Hyson Green, Nottingham. RG 9; Piece: 2450; Folio: 70; Page: 20;
Thomas Ludlam 46, framework knitter, Oadby Leicestershire
Catherine Ludlam 33, Shelton Magna
Mary A Ludlam 8 Sneaton, Notts
Harriett Ludlam 20, Badby Leicestershire
Agnes E Ludlam 6, Badby Leicestershire
Alfred Ludlam 3, Leicester
Catherine Ludlam 1, Notts

1881, 305 Birstall St, Leicester St Margaret. RG11; Piece: 3163; Folio: 45; Page: 32
Thomas Ludlam 67, Commercial (Printer??), Oadby
Catherine Ludlam 53, Shelton Magna
Catherine Ludlam 21, shoe fitter, Basford
Alfred Ludlam 24, cigar maker, Leicester
Cicilia Ludlam 18, laundress, Leicester
Alice Freer 7, granddaughter, Leicester
Elizabeh Snow 7, Granddaughter, Leicester
Louisa Ludlam 11, Leicester

Hi

I have been having a look at these census and I am wondering if Alice Freer is the daughter of Mary Ann? Dates are about right and Mary Ann is then in London with George Howell. Not sure why she would not have her daughter with her, but is it a possibility?

[hunterterri58]

Hi all and thank you so much for all your help with this.

I sent for the certificates and have found a trail. Mary Ann was born to Thomas Ludlam and Catherine Wesser in 1852 in Nottingham.

She married Thomas Henry Freer in 1872 and Thomas died in 1875 in Leicester. His mother, Caroline Freer was present at his death.

They had Alice in 1873. Alice remained with her grandparents for some reason and Mary Ann met and married George Howell in 1877 in Chelsea.

The childrens birth certificates show Harry in 1878 born to mother Mary Ann howell formerly Ludlam, Charles born to Mary Ann HOwell, late Freer in 1880 and Alfred born to Mary Ann Howell late freer, formerly Ludlam.

I could not have found this family without your excellent help and I am most grateful.

I would however be interested in your thought on Mary Ann's father, Thomas. It look as though he was married to an Elizabeth before Catherine.

I, however, cannot find Catherine at all, not in a census, her birth, or their marriage. I also cannot locate a marriage to an Elizabeth before this. I have tried to find the birth of the son William to Thomas and Elizabeth but cannot find him either.

More puzzles that I would love your opinion on please.

Thank you again.

Teresa

[almach]

I also cannot locate a marriage to an Elizabeth before this.

That marriage was found see #29. Unless you've found it's not the one.