Pre-civ reg searches: my 4th gt-grandfather

[dedken]

This post is partial general query about pre civil registration searches and partial brick wall.

I'm sure many of us, like me, have got to the stage where we need to use parish records and transcripts for extending our lineage further back in time. In some instances it can be easy to find who you're looking for because the people stayed in one parish and you can trace back via burial, marriage and baptism records (depending on original completeness of parish as well as transcription.) But what do you do when you can find no further records of your ancestors in a particular parish? How do you determine the parish from which they came for sure? If you have the choice of several people from several parishes, how reasonable is to use a distance radius upon which to base your assumptions?
Does it become the case that you have to go on a hunch? Or are there other ways of determining who went where in pre-registration days?

I have been trying since I started researching 10 years ago to find the birthplace of my 4th gt-grandfather Thomas Bazeley. We know from the burial record that he died in Wappenham, Northants (bur. 10-04-1828) aged 64, but he was definitely not born there. I have manually scrutinised every name on every digital page and image of the Wappenham parish records, and in fact prior to his marriage to Ann Jones (17 Oct 1786) you would have to go back to 29 Dec 1702 to find another Bazeley record. There is a Thomas Beasly bap in 1764 but he marries Mary Jones on 17 Apr 1786 so that rules him out. In any case Bazeley and Beasly do not sound similar despite looking like they might, so it would be highly unlikely that anyone writing it down would accidentally substitute one for the other.

I have conducted a search of the Northants parish records available on Ancestry. This reveals around 8 possibilities that match the date range +/-5yrs. Four of them (with distance radius from Wappenham) can be ruled out:

Thos Bazely bap 24th May 1763 in Kislingbury (9.5 miles), probably buried there 20 Jan 1766.
Thos Basely bap 1 Mar 1767 in Everdon (7.7 miles), buried there on 30 May 1788. Parents names make this a certainty.
Thos Bazeley bap 24th April 1763 in Ashby St Ledgers (15 miles), probably marries Ann there on 14 Oct 1787
Thomas Bazely bap 30 Jan 1762 in Abington, Northampton (13 miles), probably buried 11 Jun 1766

which leaves two more from Everdon:
Thomas Baseley bap 1 Oct 1769 in Everdon (8 miles).
Thos Basely bap 3 Mar 1765 in Everdon.
one of whom probably marries Sarah on 26 Oct 1800, the other I cannot trace. No idea which is which.

and then the final two:
Thomas Basely bap 26 Jan 1763 in Long Buckby (14 miles) Cannot trace.
Thomas Bazely bap 12 Jun 1763 in Croughton (9 miles) Cannot trace.

The one that stands out is Mr Croughton. The date match is almost spot-on. If he was born in the same month as his baptism or even the month before, then his age at death would have been exactly 64 which is what it states on his burial record. Is a date match as good as this enough to confirm he is my man? I'd like to think so, but how do I know the burial record reports an accurate enough age at death to rule out the Everdon Thomases? Does distance allow me to rule out Long Buckby Thomas? I cannot otherwise trace him forward.

Are there any other sources from pre-reg days that might help?

[emeltee]

If I am in a situation like yours the first thing I do is look at the names of his parents and the names of his children as people often used their parents names for their children. It helps greatly if one or other of the parents had an unusual Christian name, but that is rare. Also look at names of siblings. The same thing goes for the siblings as for the parents.

Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a sure fire way of being certain. Just find out as much as you can about that person and his/her family and hope something stands out which would confirm you have the right person. By the way, I personally wouldn't be too rigid re the spelling of the surname. You need to take into account regional accents and the fact that Parish Clerks may have been able to write but could they spell.

Emeltee

[Megan Roberts]

Sometimes you just have to put things away and hope that something else in time will come along and help connect the dots. But there are no hard and fast rules.

It is no good saying that they never travelled more that X or Y miles. People did travel many miles and migrate hundreds of miles.

Sometimes things can come along from completely unexpected places and throw new light on the family. I'd lost track of my 4xgt grandmother Diana Gambold nee Richards after she was widowed and remarried David Jenkins in 1803. Then someone contacted me because they knew of my interest in the Gambold family as they were researching the instances of the name Diana appearing in early Welsh wills and they had come across the administration of an estate of a Diana Lewis in 1828 that mentioned a couple Gambold men and did I know who they were? After a bit of digging, I realised that she had been widowed a second time, married a 3rd time, and the men in question were her sons, and that what family lore had always said was the Gambold family home was actually originally the Lewis family home. But for this completely out of the blue contact I would never have corrected that bit of the story, or indeed a couple of other bits.

[stepives]

I have Bazely's(and variations of surname) from Oxfordshire.

Croughton, which is almost on the Oxfordshire county line, would take me into Oxfordshire. OxFHS has an excellent collection of Parish records transcribed into CD format, plus various searches available for minimal cost.
Although some Oxfordshire records are coming online, there are a huge amount of those still to go.

The A43 road(as it is now), links directly to Northants from Oxfordshire. Yes, people did travel quite a distance, and generally on existing roads and footpaths.

My relative was born 1829 in Bletchingdon, Oxfordshire, and married, lived, and died in Hammersmith, London.
Bletchingdon is close to the old roman roads, which are now the A41 & A40.......so you can guess how they got to London.

So with all that said......try Oxfordshire parish records, if you get really stuck.


Steve.

[dedken]

If I am in a situation like yours the first thing I do is look at the names of his parents and the names of his children as people often used their parents names for their children. It helps greatly if one or other of the parents had an unusual Christian name, but that is rare. Also look at names of siblings. The same thing goes for the siblings as for the parents.

Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a sure fire way of being certain. Just find out as much as you can about that person and his/her family and hope something stands out which would confirm you have the right person. By the way, I personally wouldn't be too rigid re the spelling of the surname. You need to take into account regional accents and the fact that Parish Clerks may have been able to write but could they spell.

Emeltee

Yes I had thought of the name thing. In this case the parents would be John and Judith. Thomas called his first-born son John. There are plenty of Johns in my direct line, skipping a generation at a time. No Judiths though. Also Thomas' siblings included Sarah, Ann, Mary, Elizabeth, all of which were names Thomas used for his children. They were pretty common names back then though - some of them still!

[pwholt]

Have a look at Bazeley wills of all sorts and construct trees of those mentioned. These may help eliminate possibilities at least.
On the matter of names, even common names get favoured use or not. My family(branch) has not used Thomas since 1700 but regularly uses James. John is the most commonly used male name ( twice as often as any other) so it doesn't help much. pwholt

[cicilysmith]

I empathise, as Thomas Ball married in Youlgreave, Derbyshire in 1755 but was not born there. I searched through Derbyshire until testing my husband's Y-DNA matched him to Staffordshire families, though not of the same name and I began to look in North Staffordshire. I now have four possible Thomas Ball baptisms in the area and one, in Horton, has parents William and Sarah. Those were the names of Thomas and Hannah's first 2 children. Also, it appears that William died shortly before Thomas's birth, not having reached a great age. Thomas died in 1762, fairly young and his son Thomas also died young and his son William, but all having reproduced first. No proof, cicilysmith

[stepives]

I've just had a check through the CBS(Centre for Buckinghamshire Studies) marriage Bonds list, and found these. They may, or may not be of any use. But It gives you an idea of travel to get married.

Edward Beasley(of Farthinghoe, N/Hants), to Elizabeth Newman,(a Minor of Simpson). Bond granted, 5 July 1809.
George Beasley,(Hawker or Pedlar of Great Worth, Northants), to Hannah Boucher(Widow of Banbury, Oxon). Bond granted 3 Jan 1820.
John Beazley(of Ambrosden, Oxon) to Jane West(of Towersey) Married at Towersey or Thame. Bond granted, 28 Sept 1747.

There are several other marriages for Beasley(and variations) in the Bonds list. This is a FREE Microsoft Excel download from the CBS.

Female Beasley have to be searched for in the list, but all males are in alphabetical order.


Steve.

[dedken]

I empathise, as Thomas Ball married in Youlgreave, Derbyshire in 1755 but was not born there. I searched through Derbyshire until testing my husband's Y-DNA matched him to Staffordshire families, though not of the same name and I began to look in North Staffordshire. I now have four possible Thomas Ball baptisms in the area and one, in Horton, has parents William and Sarah. Those were the names of Thomas and Hannah's first 2 children. Also, it appears that William died shortly before Thomas's birth, not having reached a great age. Thomas died in 1762, fairly young and his son Thomas also died young and his son William, but all having reproduced first. No proof, cicilysmith

I have thought about testing DNA, but I don't really have the money for it. I guess it depends how desperate I am to find closure on it.

[dedken]

Looking at the Bazeley name and derivations thereof, there is an agglomeration of them in 3 specific areas of the country: 1) south midlands - Northants, Bucks, Oxon, Warwicks; 2) Devon; 3) Lancashire.

I would think it unlikely that my Thomas Bazeley has originated from one of the other geographical strongholds. Of it *IS* possible, but I think unlikely. Considering there is already a fairly large Bazeley diaspora in the south midlands I think it is *MUCH MORE* likely he came from this area.

I think my discovery of the Croughton Thomas Bazeley ticks most of the right boxes including those which are educated assumptions, but it's finding proof that is the problem. It's not just about adding in a missing place of birth though because Croughton Thomas has siblings which I've already started to trace and I want to know whether it's worth my effort to trace them forwards or not!

What would you do if he was your relative? Add in the place of birth and start tracing? Or leave it out?