Simmons of Whitechapel

[judithv]

WE have DNA confirmation for my wife Judith and a newly found close cousin, of a direct line to the Whitechapel Jewish community. The paper trail goes back to Joseph Henry Simmons who married Ellen Jacobs in 1905. While the marriage certificate indicates an Abraham Simmons as the father, It does not match with any other info. Judith's connection is to a John who was supposed to be born In Victoria, Australia but there is no registration. There seems to be a very close connection to Joseph Henry but I cannot find it. Any ideas?

[Pam Downes]

Hello judithv,

Welcome to British-Genealogy.

What other information about Joseph Henry and Abraham is on the marriage certificate? e.g. age and address for Joseph, and occupations for both of them. And how old was Ellen?

Are Joseph and Ellen likely to still be in England in 1911? I can't immediately see them in the 1911 census, though I've found a Joseph (aged 29) and Nellie (aged 28), married 5 years, no children, living in Eastbourne.

Pam

[judithv]

The extract of the marriage certificate dated 1st Dec 1905 says Joseph Henry was 33 father Abraham was a Tobacconist. Ellen Jacobs was 22, father Peter? a printer. I have a Lazarus Jacobs as her father and Rose Ann Green as mother.
Addresses are 31 Gun St, Old Artillery Grounds, The Jacobs address is 71 Vallance Rd, Mile End Newtown.
The Simmons family were in Australia by 1911. They had one child in London, Constance born 1905.
thanks
Steve

[Dundee10]

What was Joseph's occupation? Were either previously married?

Hi Steve and Welcome

I have a Lazarus Jacobs as her father and Rose Ann Green as mother.

Steve

Where do these names come from? We don't know these people so you need to give as much information as you have, together with the sources.

Is this Ellen's death in 1945 in NSW....Ellen Mary wife of Joseph Henry...

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/17960522

No parents named in her death reg.

Joseph died in 1960, registered as Henry Joseph in his 93rd year, parents Abraham and Clara. The same children as Ellen are named in his death notice. I can post that if you want, it is too late for Trove. That age gives him an approx birth year of 1867, about five years older than his age when married. Do you have any certificates that tell you where Ellen and Joseph were born?

What do you know about your John SIMMONS - approx birth year, marriage, children and death?

[judithv]

Firstly Ellen died in 1945 in Sydney NSW. I have the Trove reference.
Joseph is listed as a tobacconist presumable running his father' business on the marriage certificate
As far as Ellen Jacobs birth is concerned, I looked up FreeBDM having been told by descendents that Ellen's mother was an Ann or Rose Ann Green; I found a marriage between Lazarus Jacobs and Rose Ann Green married in Jun1882 (1c/174) and Ellen born in Sep 1882 (London Central). I have nothing on Joseph Henry. I have a Lazarus Jacobs from FreeBDM born Dec 1851 (1/43) in St Martins in the field who died in Whitechapel in 1907 (1c/141). I only have the marriage certificate for Joseph and Ellen. Neither were married before.
The name for Joseph's father is Abraham on the marriage certificate and if Constance, Douglas Frank and Roy are on his death certificate it would definitely be him who died in 1960. Can you pass the death certificate information to me please? My email is svigh AT ozemail DOT com DOT au
As far as our John Simmons is concerned, he claimed that he was born in 1851 in Geelong Victoria, Australia. However there is no paper trail for this at all. John had a defacto relationship with Mary Ann Rourke but the children were registered in his name. John Simmons is my wife's great grandfather. The DNA suggests a very close relationship to Joseph Henry's family and descendents. John died in 1899 in West Maitland, NSW
thanks Steve

[Dundee10]

It's just a death notice from the newspaper, not a death certificate.

SMH 1 July 1960 (Page 32)

[Dundee10]

‘….loved father of Gordon (deceased)….’

So who is Gordon you might ask? This story is a bit complicated.

Joseph Henry was married previously in Sydney in 1889 to Charlotte Louisa JACKSON. They had one son named Gordon Abraham in 1890 and they divorced in 1905. Some articles here:

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/228722682
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/114463832
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14744850

Charlotte remarried to John RICHINGS in 1906.

Gordon Abraham died in 1928 and his death notices name him as the son of Charlotte RICHINGS and Joseph SIMMONS.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/16237069
(skip the two for SIMMONDS and go to SIMMONS)

There is an ‘In Memoriam’ the following year from brother Douglas and Tilda.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/16326644

So, according to the newspaper article Joseph returned to South Africa after having served during the Boer War and his wife did not see him again. This explains why he wasn’t married until 1905 when his divorce was finalised. The two sons, Douglas and Royal were born before the marriage.

It looks like the family arrived in Sydney via Melbourne on the ship ‘Cycle’ in June 1907. Joseph H. SIMMONS, aged 36, Painter, wife aged 23, two boys aged 6 and 4, one girl aged 15 weeks (it could be months but I am pretty sure the word is weeks). They embarked at Cape Town, South Africa.

Royal’s RAN service record https://soda.naa.gov.au/record/4510431/1 confirms that he was born in South Africa in 1903 and Douglas’s death notice in 1958 says that he is the eldest son of Joseph and Ellen. That would make Douglas the 6 year old and Royal aged 4 when they arrived. I think that Douglas was probably already born or on the way when Joseph returned from the war. No wonder “he was always pressing her to consent to him returning to South Africa, on the ground that he was not doing much here” – cheeky sod.

Do you know if Douglas was also born in South Africa? This would mean they had the two boys there, went to England and married, had Constance there, then returned to South Africa before going to Australia. Are you sure that Constance was born in England? I wonder if Joseph and Ellen met in South Africa or in England?

[Pam Downes]

Dundee10 - all I can say is

That is some sleuthing.

Pam

[Dundee10]

That is some sleuthing.

Pam

Us sticky beaks are so lucky to have Trove to solve world's mysteries.

Steve, if you were to get Amelia's (Millie) NSW birth certificate I am sure that it would tell you that Joseph/Henry was born in Sydney.

Joseph died in 1960, registered as Henry Joseph in his 93rd year, parents Abraham and Clara.

Children born to Abraham and Clara in Sydney:

1863 RACHEL
1866 DANIEL
1868 HENRY J
1870 MATILDA
1873 AARON
1877 FINNEY

Abraham did not marry Clara HARRIS until 1871, so there might be a story there. Trove has articles about Abraham the Tobacconist, including one in 1878 about Joseph and Aaron's school fees. So it seems HJ was always known as Joseph.

There are plenty of family trees on Ancestry for Abraham but none of them know anything about Joseph. I don't know how accurate they are but with an initial look they seem OK. You have a lot of people who can potentially link to your John. Abraham arrived with his parents and siblings (none named John) in 1854 and they all went forth and multiplied. Abraham was born around 1846, so if your John was born c1851 then they were of the same generation and you would be looking for someone who had arrived earlier.

John died in 1899 in West Maitland, NSW

6214/1899
SIMMONS, JOHN
Parents: JOHN & MARGARET
Registered at WEST MAITLAND

Do you have this death cert? Is there a maiden surname recorded for Margaret?

[judithv]

Thank you very much Dundee10! We knew the Simmonses were really slippery but we could not have imagined how much. It makes sense that Judith's grandfather was called the "Plague". He died on the Western Front while he was as runner opposite to Adolf Hitler. Unfortunately we do not have a surname for Margaret our John's mother. We have found another relative in Victoria who may know a bit more. Just one thing. I have always checked Trove for possible information but I would not have found either Abraham or Henry Joseph. How did you connect with this fabulous information?
Thanks once again!! I will post any new information if I find any!
regards
Steve