Formerly and Maiden Surname

[Kiltpin]

Would you agree that if as a widow she gave birth and the father could not acknowledge the child, then the baby would take her maiden name?

Sorry, I disagree totally.

Scots law in these matters has always been far more progressive than English law.

In England, if a child is born to parents who are not married to each other at the time of the birth, that child is illegitimate and nothing, in law, can change that status. The child might very well be adopted by the father, making the father the legal father, but the fact that he was born illegitimately can never be changed. This would mean that the child could not inherit the title or coat of arms of the father (if he had them).

In Scotland, on the other hand, an illegitimate child can be legitimised by the marriage of the parents. This can be years later. A good friend of mine has a common-law wife. She bore him three children (23, 15 and 13 years old). Her estranged husband finally died and she is now free to marry my friend. All three children (the eldest being an adult) will be legitimised, before the two youngest return to school in September.

It would be assumed that the child of the widow in the case we have before us is the child of her husband. There would be no need for anybody to acknowledge anything. Adults die. That death would not make the child illegitimate. The child should bear the father's name, not the mother's maiden name.

In Scotland, everybody keeps the name they were born with. Miss Mary Jones marries John Smith and becomes Mary Jones the wife of John Smith. All the children would then have the Smith surname. But legally throughout her life, she will remain Mary Jones. One only need look at the gravestones to see this. Regardless of how many marriages and widowhoods a woman goes through, she retains her maiden name.

Regards

Kiltpin

[Debra Fiddes]

This is my issue..Emma Smith married William Fiddes. Emma Smith had a son, Samuel Smith described as Williams step son. The marriage certificate states that Emmas father was Mr Smith. In fact all records indicate that Emmas maiden name was Smith. All that is except for the one I posted. The couple married in England then moved back to Scotland. Samuel did become Samuel Fiddes. ? What do you make of this?

[Kiltpin]

At this time of night (22:45), I don't have an immediate answer, but my feeling is that it comes down to her legal name in the country in which she was married; where the boy was born would affect his name; whether she reverted back to her legal Scottish name on return; and finally if she misunderstood what her legal name was.

A lot to think about - I need my beauty sleep.

Regards

Kiltpin

[Pam Downes]

This is my issue..Emma Smith married William Fiddes. Emma Smith had a son, Samuel Smith described as Williams step son. The marriage certificate states that Emmas father was Mr Smith. In fact all records indicate that Emmas maiden name was Smith. All that is except for the one I posted. The couple married in England then moved back to Scotland. Samuel did become Samuel Fiddes. ? What do you make of this?

Does this mean that you have her birth certificate? And her parent's marriage certificate?
If so, when was her birth registered, and what are her parents names? When did her parents marry, and do the names match those on her birth certificate?
Have you found the family on any (though preferably more than one) census?

Pam

[Debra Fiddes]

Pam, I have 5 copies of original documents plus several online data links following Emma Smith. Her parents match up on all of these. Unfortunately during the year that one would presume she was married to a ---- Grice (1861 ) , I find nothing. I am not even sure if I am reading the name right on the cert I posted as I cannot find a match to a Grice household in 1861 that would be even a stretch of a match.

[Debra Fiddes]

nighty night..and thanks

[Debra Fiddes]

Here's her Death Certificate, matches the marriage details too.

[Pam Downes]

Hi Debra,

The reason I asked about the certificates was that I wondered if Emma could have been born illegitimate (possibly as a Grice), with her parents marrying after her birth. I've got a couple of people in my tree whose births are registered in their mother's surname, but who then became known by their father's surname after their (presumed) parents had married.
The other possible scenario being that Emma's mother was married to a Grice, he died, and then mum married a Smith, whose name Emma took.
I expect that even nowadays it's possible for people to get confused about former names at various times of their lives - especially if you're asked such a question unexpectedly.

Pam

[jac65]

Hi

Do you have a copy of the marriage certificate between William Fiddes and Emma Smith? If so is Emma described as spinster or widow? Also what is the occupation of William? There is a baptism on Ancestry London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906 for a Jane Fiddes 9th Feb 1868 Chelsea St Simon, father William mother Emma. William is a Private in the Fusiliers Guards. Jane is in Abelady with her grandparents in 1871 and 1881. Her marriage in 1887 names her parents as William Fiddes and Emma Fiddes ms Smith. If you haven't got a copy of the marriage message me your email and I will send it.

My reading of the various documents is that Emma Smith is her maiden name and Samuel is likely illegitimate, who has he named as his father when he married? At some stage Emma has been known as Emma Grice, whether that was from a previous marriage (her marriage certificate to William should indicate that) or for some other reason is difficult to say.

Andy

[Debra Fiddes]

Pam, Definitely another possibility. I too have had this issue with my mother's family. Her father abandoned her mother and at that time divorce was impossible due to strict religious rules in the province of Quebec. My Grandmother took the name of her second husband, then a third spouse. If I had not known these surnames I would never have been able to find her records.

I had at first considered that Samuel was illegitimate as he had his mother's surname. It was only upon finding the one record with "formerly Grice" that I am now wondering. Thanks for your comments...