Was a sort-of now a DEFINITE success!

[Pam Downes]

Thanks to all the wonderful people who've contributed to this thread, it's no longer a 'sort-of success' based on my first post it's a definite one so I've amended the title accordingly.


Successful in so far as I've been able to positively discount one death certificate I ordered in the hope that it might be 'the one I wanted'.

I've been searching for the death of my great grandfather, Thomas William Empson, born 1875 in Sea Palling (Norfolk) for about fifteen years. I've got his two marriages, his eight children (four from each marriage) and most of their lives, even have a photo of his second wife, but have never been able to find a death registration for him. He's described as 'deceased' on the marriage certificate of one of his children in 1934, but even that hasn't helped in narrowing down the search.

In the 1939 Register his second wife is described as 'widow', but I was still thinking of 'could he possibly have done a runner so the family are just saying he's deceased'?

However, FMP have recently released Electoral Rolls 1832-1932, and on the off-chance I typed in Thomas Empson, Cornwall'. There he is. in 1929 and one of the 1930 registers. In 1929 at the address his youngest daughter was born at, and in 1930 at the address where his widow is living in 1939.
He lived in the Penzance area, so I'm now thinking along the lines that he possibly went out on a fishing boat which was lost at sea, and his body never recovered. I'll have to mug up on the rules of what happens re death registration if a body is never recovered.

It certainly gives me a quite narrow window (approximately six months) to search the local newspapers in the hope that something about him will be there.

The death certificate I'd previously ordered was for a plain Thomas Empson, aged 60 who died in January 1934 in Stratfield Saye. He's not my man because he's living in Strafield Saye in 1929 and 1931 with a Rose Alice Empson.

Pam

[Lesley Robertson]

Two things you've probably thought of.
Where was the local hospital? If he'd died there, he be registered there (happened with one of my ggfathers).
In my OPS there's a guy whose death is registered 2 parishes from home because he was thrown by his horse while travelling him from the local market town. Someone took him in when he was found, and he died there....

Ggfather took ages to find (it was his son's local hospital, not his). The OPS guy was found during a routine search of old newspapers... I'd assumed hat he'd just left home...

[Pam Downes]

Thanks for your thoughts Lesley.

If Thomas had died in a hospital anywhere in England or Wales, he should appear in the GRO Index - but he doesn't.
Which is the problem.
I must admit that I hadn't thought of trying Scottish or Irish death records. I'll have to do that when I get back from my pub lunch.

Pam

[Ed McKie]

Thanks for your thoughts Lesley.

If Thomas had died in a hospital anywhere in England or Wales, he should appear in the GRO Index - but he doesn't.
Which is the problem.

Pam

You have given the answer yourself Pam "should have" but from memory the the GRO index is second hand or is it third?
From memory the GRO index was compiled from the returns of the local Superintendent Registrar. In the olden days :-) when we bought certs from the local registrar I have lost count of the number of incorrect certs I received because the clerk made an error in transcribing them. The ones that I caught were those with obvious errors, but what about the others? The point that this meandering is getting to is that surely this could also have happened when the returns were being made to the GRO. It may well be worth while requesting a death cert from the local registrar, supposing they are still doing them, as not all are.

cheers Ed

[MrsPoppy]

I don't have a FMP subscription but just looking at the newspapers I can see a transcript for a Thomas W Empson who died at Prince George, Canada 1931 - this is an 'in memoriam' 24th November 1932, in the Cornishman. I know, quite often, when you get to see the actual newspaper article it is nothing like the transcript but probably worth a check if you have a subscription. Would he have a reason to go on a trip to Canada? Was the last sighting in 1930 on the electoral roll?

If he did happen to be overseas would he be registered in the nationals died overseas death index?

[Wilkes_ml]

Would he have a reason to go on a trip to Canada?

Maybe visiting a child who had emigrated? Or searching for work like one of my ancestors, who retired from the army, decided to leave his family in Erith, Kent to search for work in Wells, Somerset where he suddenly took ill and died in the local union infirmary. Took me ages to find it as it wasn't where I was expecting it to be at all!

[Mona]

B.C. death index has a Thomas Empson, age 52, date of death 22 Nov 1931. Place of death: Nichol

A Thomas Empson arrived in Canada, Quebec, in 1923 from Penzance. Age 45 to work as a harvester. Born Gt Yarmouth, wife Mrs E in Penzance.
If you need image, let me know.

[MrsPoppy]

To supplement Mona's post above - I can glean from FMP newspapers that a T W Empson left Trevarrak ? Gulval Penzance for Canada 1923 as above shipping list. It says he served in the Royal Navy in WW1 - it also has his birth as 1878 so probably not your man. Especially as he shows up on Electoral Rolls in 1929 and 1930. So this chap was still in Canada.

[Pam Downes]

To Mrs Poppy, Michelle, and Mona,



Just a HUGE 'thank you' to you all.

I think this has to be my Thomas William, though there are still a few things which don't quite add up. Such as why he's on the electoral rolls for 1922 to 1930 and listed as being able to vote on residence qualification if he was (allegedly) in British Columbia.

FamilySearch have the death registration for a plain Thomas Empson (no middle name) on 22 Nov 1931 in Nichol, and it says that he's been in the province for eight years, and is 52. The age is slightly out, because 'my' Thomas was born in April 1875, so strictly speaking would have been 56. But - did he lie about his age in order to get work?
The age on the passenger list in 1923 is three years out, but there's a possibility that a clerk misread a 5 as an 8 when he/she typed up the list. The address on the passenger list is that of 'my' Thomas in 1919 and on the electoral rolls for 1922 - 1929.

Another tick in the 'quite-convincing-that-he's-mine' box (apart from the 'In memoriam' notice) is that on the death registration it says 'Section man C.N.R.' which I presume is Canadian National Railway, and he's described on the marriage certificates of two of his daughters as 'Railway worker/railway employee'.

So tomorrow morning I'll be 'heading to Cornwall' to look at local papers for 1923 and 1931 as in 'I'll be phoning the Cornwall Archives/Penzance library'.

Just so, so , many thanks everyone.

Pam

[MrsPoppy]

Hi Pam

Canada's free online digitised newspapers have a small notice here https://www.cangenealogy.com/newspapers.html

scroll down to Prince George

then the Prince George Citizen of 29th November 1931. (page 6)

The funeral of the late T Empston (sic) took place under the auspicies of the British Legion. He was found dead presumed of heart disease. He was employed on the C N R section.

Doesn't mention family in this notice