Isaac Isaacs d. London c. 1807/1809

[Ellen]

Isaac Isaacs died at ''...the hospital belonging to the Portuguese Jews...'' having arrived in London to seek medical help some 3 weeks earlier from Ipswich. My questions are the following a/ would the fact that Isaac attended this hospital indicate that he was himself of Sephardic origin b/ does anyone know of an Isaac Isaacs buried [ anywhere] during this time frame - Thank you.

[phillip]

Hi Ellen
For clarity is this Isaac Isaacs of Ipswich the father of Hyam Burn Isaacs - see The Rise of Provincial Jewry. Cecil Roth The Early Communities Section 3 (Exeter to Ipswich)..." Hyam Burn Isaacs son of Isaac Isaacs of Ipswich ( where the latter's father had resided)....". This short extract by Roth also referred to the issue of the Baptism of Hyam at the age of 16. My thinking is this.. was Isaac a Sephardi and what evidence is there in the issue of the Baptism of his son Hyam to confirm this?
I noted the Burial of Isaac Isaacs Westminster St.Marylebone 22 June 1810 and can't see any record of a burial for an Isaac Isaacs within the time frame c 1807-1809 on Cemetery Scribes site. Will check any probate but I have already seen your family tree and noted you have a different first name for the father of Hyam Burn Isaacs compared to Roth.

I don't think that there was any bar to an Ashkenazi Jew attending the Spanish Portuguese Jews Hospital.
Phillip

[phillip]

Hi Ellen
Take a close look at the Narrative of the Rev.Joseph Samuel C Frey 1817 on Google Books- there is a detailed account of Hyam Burn Isaacs which refers to him being brought up by his grandfather Isaac Isaacs of Ipswich who was a rabbi or at least an important person among the Jewish community. The article is based on the account by Hyam of his upbringing and includes reference to his grandfather being taken ill in Ipswich and going to the Spanish and Portuguese Jews Hospital where he died after 3 weeks- this appears to be circa 1810 but you need to check and there is also the letter from Isaac Isaacs 39 Orange Street Portsea Portsmouth. London June 18 1810 regarding information about Hyam's whereabouts and giving his age as 15 years. It looks as if Hyam's grandfather had been in Portsea but then went to Ipswich for five months before being taken ill and going to London.

If Isaac Isaacs the grandfather was a Rabbi then you should be able to confirm whether or not he was Sephardi.

Phillip

[phillip]

Hi Ellen
See Synagogue Scribes - Henry Roche Portsmouth Synagogue Early Membership Lists 1765-1843- note in particular the records of PSEM 172 ISRAEL ISAACS -Asher ( Enzla) b Isaac Ibshitz -Ipswich Bury St.Edmunds 1806
PSEM 196 LEWIS ISAACS Uri b Asher Ibshitz - Ipswich son of Israel Isaacs
PSEM 197 HENRY ISAACS son of Israel Isaacs of Ipswich 1810

Given that Israel Isaacs and his 2 sons were members of the Ashkenazi Portsmouth Synagogue I doubt that Israel's father - the grandfather of Hyam Burn Isaacs was Sephardi.

I note that the above individuals are on your Isaacs family tree so you can now cross reference the names and data.
Phillip

[Ellen]

Hi Phillip....I was about to post but you have found the Narrative- there is some more so I will post anyway

Hi Phillip, In a nutshell - Yes ; in a Free Google book i.e Frey's Narrative, I found the above [ quote] also a record of Hyam Burn's Affidavit & much else which tells me that Hyam's father was Israel from Portsea....from further extracts, his brother in law was A.N Solomon & as you know, Israel's daughter Betsey was married to Barnett Solomon [ mine] I worked out the date from the Affidavit [ p. 212] but I could be wrong on that . The dates coincide perfectly for the arrival in Portsea of my Israel/Asher et al ....but not my Samuel ???Henry Roche has commented in the past regarding Samuel's absence from the earlier records I think that Hyam B is therefore either a brother of or is , my Samuel . Hyam B states that Isaac[ his Grandfather] was either a Rabbi or a learned man among the Jews .

Cecil Roth I am sure , took his information from this Narrative because he quotes 'Isaac Isaacs' as father , which is indeed how the pamphlet produced by Hyam's family names him . However, The Times July 11/1810 names him as Israel , as does The London Gazzette which also gives the same address as quoted in the pamphlet.

I have spent weeks searching for Hyam's baptism in 1810 , unfortunately the one attributed to him happened in 1814 & so is not much help .

Many thanks

[Ellen]

Hi Phillip,
Given that Hyam is Isaac's grandson, I took it to mean that Hyam knew his Grandfather had been a Rabbi/man of learning , in the ' old' country ...otherwise, I would imagine that he would have stated the fact more clearly ...what do you think?

I don't understand why Isaac attended the Portuguese Jews hospital as there was I believe an earlier Ashkenazi one in the same area. Unless of course it refers to the fact that these Isaac's had probably arrived at Ipswich from Holland & I believe Dutch Jews were also catered for at this hospital .

There is also an entry for Hyam Burn Isaacs as student at St Edmund Hall Oxford in 1818 ...father 'Lewis' . I think this refers to Lewis Way who effectively 'bank-rolled' The London Society of which Frey etc: were all a part of. I am waiting for a reply from the Archivist at St Edmund Hall .

Ellen

[phillip]

Hi Ellen
Not sure about there being a specific Ashkenazi Jews' Hospital until the Jew's Hospital circa 1807 which I understand was an initial small orphanage- would need to check data and facts on this. With regard to the Baptism record for Hyam Burn Isaacs aka Isaac - am I right in thinking he would be given a Christian first and last name rather than keeping his Jewish names- needs checking out.
I have read Hyam's later publication on his views about Judaism and Christianity- see Google Books.

My thinking is that the Isaacs are Ashkenazi probably Dutch/German Jews. I think that Isaac went to the Spanish Portuguese Jews Hospital because it was well established and had a good reputation.
Phillip

[Ellen]

Hi Phillip,
There are 2 Hyam Isaacs & the one who wrote the book was married to Amelia Wolfe....I have sent you a link to the public Ancestry tree that I began to resolve this issue . Yes- it was the practice to give the convert a new name but nothing comes up for June 1810 that makes me think it is he. If it was my Samuel, then he is now buried in the old Jewish cemetery at Fawcett Road in Portsmouth?? There are however no Synagogue records other than his burial.
Cath

[phillip]

Hi Cath
For clarity- Free BMD Death Hyam Burne Isaacs June qtr 1844 Portsea 7 112 also Hyam Burn Isaacs same reference; Hyam Isaacs Sept qtr 1847 10 56

These are 2 different Hyam Isaacs but both converts to Christianity. The Cornwall Royal Gazette, Falmouth Packet and Plymouth Journal Friday July 16, 1847 has the account of the suicide of Hyam Isaacs... " On Saturday, Mr Hyam Isaacs a christianised Jew committed suicide, by poison at Exteter apparently under feelings of disappointment at funding a patent buffer he had invented for preventing the effects of carriage collision on the railways, was not successful in obtaining a demand".

Do you have the GRO Death Certificate for Hyam Burn Isaacs who died in 1846?
Phillip

[Ellen]

Hi Phillip,
There is something quite odd about the entries for Hyam Burne Isaacs in 1844 in that the death is registered before the birth . I have not applied for either as I assumed it must be a recording error & that therefore, the child lived for only 3 months....upon reflection, I think that I will apply for the birth as it might shed some light upon the identity of Hyam Burn born at Ipswich in 1794.

Apparently the death of Hyam Isaacs at Exeter in 1847 is a matter of Public Record ; I also found references to the death written by 2 of his sons .That Hyam Isaacs at Exeter is not Hyam Burn of Ipswich, is clear from the birth of Hyam's[ Exeter] eldest child born in 1807 , also both are on the member list as founder members of Frey's group at Palestine Place in London; also Amelia Wolfe & her son Benjamin.

Catherine Ellen