Isaac Isaacs d. London c. 1807/1809

[phillip]

Cath
Looking at the data we have Harris Isaacs b circa 1786 with wife Caroline and then Harris Isaacs marrying Sarah Simmons. Are Jolles et al saying that Harris Isaacs b circa 1786 was also the Harris Isaacs who died in 1888 but was not age 88 but really 102 years +- 5 years. If so, some big lies by a Rabbi regarding his actual age and consistently so over several decades when he claimed to be born circa 1810. It doesn't add up. Why didn't someone in the community pick up the significant age difference bearing in mind that he was a Rabbi in 1816. There is some missing data. What proof do we have that Harris Isaacs with wife Caroline returned from Joppa to the UK.
I would like to see the marriage record for Harris to Sarah but it may only confirm his dob as circa 1810 and not circa 1786.
Very interesting given that Hyam referred to Isaac as a possible Rabbi and then in 1816 we have Harris Isaacs as Rabbi in Ipswich. Just a coincidence of last names of Isaacs or else a possible family member?
Phillip

[phillip]

Cath
Death-At Joppa, on her way to Jerusalem, Caroline, the beloved wife of the Rev.Harris Isaacs late of Ipswich. She was interred in the Holy Land.
The Bury and Norwich Post, and East Anglian Wednesday Oct 16,1844

Still looking.
Phillip

[phillip]

Cath
I wrote about the connections between the Jacob, Levy, Woolf, Simmons ( Rabbi Barnett Asher Simmons father of Sarah who married Rabbi Harris Isaacs) on the thread Markes Levy 1812-1877- Bella Woolf 1817-1881- started 18.07.2015. This thread was started because one of my Jacobs, Simmonds, Hauer distant relatives in USA had the Markes Levy line as part of his family history.
I did not look in any detail at all the related lines so was unaware of Harris Isaacs/ Sarah Simmons until now.

Phillip

[phillip]

Cath and others
Here is the 1851 Census for Harris Isaacs - he is recorded as Harris ISACC. HO107 2458 560 26 (Crown Copyright,TNA)
High Street Merthyr Tydfil Glamorgan
Harris ISACC H Married 41 b Poland MINISTER +1 servant

Interesting he is recorded as married if Caroline died in 1844 and he didn't marry Sarah SIMMONS until 1855- Marriage June qtr 1855 Merthyr Tydfil 11a 557

As said in previous posts the Census records are very consistent from 1851 until the death of Harris where his dob is circa 1800.
However, we have still have the Harris Isaacs b circa 1785 in 1841 and Rabbi in 1816 so why the significant difference in age for the rest of the census? Harris would have been circa +- 5 years -70 years old when he married Sarah Simmons and an old man by the time of the birth of his first child Flora who was recorded as 6 mths in the 1861 census. Not impossible at all but I am wondering why there appears to be such an age difference in dob from 1841 to 1851 and beyond.
Any thoughts?
Phillip

[Ellen]

Phillip,
Thank you for all - I shall have a look at the Levy/Woolf thread, don't think I have as yet.

Yes- I noticed that the Census for 1851 records that he is married & thought as you have why, if in 1844 he was widowed.... I decided to let it go as at least it doesn't say 'unmarried' ...maybe it gave him greater security with his congregation or was Caroline actually dead at that point . Have we anything but her husband's word for the fact? I suppose there might be records at Jaffa[ Joppa] going back to 1844? Does The Bury and Norwich Post, and East Anglian Wednesday Oct 16,1844 record how they were informed of Caroline's death? Did Harris Isaacs have a wife between Caroline & Sarah ...

As I am relatively local to Merthyr I imagine that the Swansea Archives may have at least Rabbi H Isaac's marriage to Sarah ... I will get back to you on that one! Yes- it seems to me that M.Jolles et al. do think that Ipswich & Merthyr had the same Harris Isaacs . I certainly would not have come to that conclusion on the facts that we have from the Census alone so I assume that there must be records at Merthyr or probably now in Swansea.
Thanks again
Cath

[phillip]

Cath
The significant gap in ages between 1841-1888 for Harris still concerns me. It is asking a lot to consider a person aged circa 55 in 1841 to appear to be some 15 plus years younger by 1851 and carry that age difference until their death without any one ( perhaps they did?) questioning the age of a Rabbi who was in Ipswich in 1816 and then age 41 in 1851- doesn't stack up.
Would like to have a lot more data on the Harris in Wales and later Birmingham including his marriage certificate.
If there are 2 different Harris Isaacs then is the first one who is the 1816 Rabbi in Ipswich related to you?
Phillip

[Ellen]

Phillip,
Records for Merthyr are at Cardiff apparently . However, I think there must be 2 Harris Isaacs as you say because I think I have just located a marriage for Harris Isaacs [ Tsevi Hirsh] & Caroline GSM 1820 ...she is also Isaacs . The father of Harris is Isaac & Caroline[ Keila] also has an Isaac as father - not the same I hope. So what can we do with Tsevi Hirsh ??
Cath

[phillip]

Cath
The Synagogue Scribes Marriage Record may or may not be relevant to Rabbi Harris Isaacs 1816 of Ipswich but it looks promising. For other readers the reference is GSM197/03 -22 October 1820- Harris Isaacs - Hebrew name Tsevi Hirsh -father's Hebrew name Isaac; Caroline Isaacs Hebrew name Keila -father's Hebrew name Isaac.
Doesn't get us very far but suggests that if the record is relevant that there appear to be 2 Harris Isaacs one of whom was the Ipswich Rabbi.
It seems to me that further research in Ipswich is needed to identify who Rabbi Harris Isaacs was and are there any records to indicate his family and also that of Caroline. We know from the 1841 Census that both Harris and Caroline were Foreign Birth and it is likely that circa 1816 Harris arrived in Ipswich from abroad. That's about as far as we can go without new data. Did this Harris remain in Jerusalem after Caroline died? Is there any relationship between this Harris and your Isaac?
More to consider.
Phillip