Isaac Isaacs d. London c. 1807/1809

[Ellen]

Hi Phillip,
I now have the BC for Hyam Burne Isaacs & it is as I thought , Hyam died before he was born [ officially] ; the death is registered for the 27th June & the birth 25th July [ 1844]. I have posted both on Hyam Burne Isaacs @ Ancestry...any suggestions - anyone?? Thanks

[Ellen]

This is an Edit to my earlier post as can't remember how to do it. Ann Isaacs [ nee Bone] my GGGran gave the birth of Hyam Burne as being 21st June which would be correct for the date of death 5 days later on the 25th ... would this birth entry having been entered 6 weeks after after the birth & death , account for the discrepancy i.e a filing error ?
Thanks.

[phillip]

Cath
I have seen the GRO Birth Certificate for Hyam but not his GRO Death Certificate. The GRO Birth Certificate is very precise giving Hyam's dob as 21 June 1844 5 minutes before 5 and his mother Ann registered the birth on 25 June.
I am unclear as to your #21 regarding Hyam's death as being 27 June- is this a recorder error meaning 27 July?
Can you put the GRO Death Certificate on your Ancestry.Com Family tree - private tree. I will take a close look.
Phillip

[Ellen]

Phillip- It was on my tree in 'Gallery' [ I assumed you could see all of the tree? ] I have now made it Hyam Burne's Profile just in case you still are unable to get to Gallery [ I think it must be teething problems with Ancestry 'New & Improved ]
Cath

[phillip]

Cath
. The typed version shows date of death 26 June 1844 at 5pm 40 Havant Street Portsea and the informant Hariet Blake 17 Unicorn Street Portsea date of registration 27 June. The original copy has not been sent for various reasons possibly because of poor quality hence them not sending a photo copy.
The informant is not the parent. It's likely Ann was still unwell or too upset to report in person and Samuel at home. My thoughts based on my receiving a similar GRO certificate suggest that the typed copy is based on an original error by the registrar and should read date of death 26 July and registration 27 July.
I would like to see the original copy but this may show what the typed copy does.
What do you think?
Phillip

[Ellen]

Phillip,
I agree that the original death certificate is probably of poor quality hence the typed version but it does say that Hyam Burne lived for only 5 days. The question for me is, why would it be necessary in July to register the birth having done the death registration back in June.

Do you think that the precise nature of the recorded facts i.e ''5 min: before 5 am'' ...'' 5 pm '' is down to the informant or the Registrar ... a lot of ' 5's' - something seems a bit odd to me but I can't decide what it is.

Yes- I think that I would like to see the original DC if possible & will phone the GRO am
Cath

[phillip]

Cath
A thought- was a Coroner's Inquiry required for the death hence the precise details regarding time of birth and the delay in registering. However, I can't see an Inquiry in newspaper articles but not all may have been reported. The detail of the time looks also to be that of the informant and if there was no Coroner's Inquiry why such a precise time? Having said all of this, how could the death be registered so quickly if a Coroner's Report was required. It would have taken longer to set up the inquiry.
Have we missed something?
Phillip

[Ellen]

Good idea & I have put it to the Portsmouth record office who are looking in to it waiting... & will let you know when I hear from them . Thanks .
Cath

[Ellen]

Phillip,
Apparently the original for the death of Hyam Burne corresponds exactly & no Coroner's inquiry, so none the wiser . The only explanation given is that both the birth and death registration correspond with the upper time limit allowed for the reporting of both events . I have something similar on my husband's side but here both birth and death were registered on the same day when the child died.

Would you have any further ideas as to who the Grandfather mentioned by Hyam Burn [ B. 1794 ] on the Affidavit , might be ? I am assuming it to be 'Isaac' Isaacs as Todd Endelman, presumably quoting Cecil Roth , uses same in The Jews of Georgian England . Also, as Israel/Isaac of Appendix No X1[ Frey's Narrative] is mine, his name on Synagogue Registers i.e b . Isaac Ibshitz indicates this conclusion. According to the Affidavit this Isaac Isaacs[ Grandfather] was '' a rabbi or at least a person of considerable learning amongst the Jews'' ??

Thanks

Cath

[phillip]

Cath
I am still looking for Isaac Isaacs and for clarity noted the bankruptcy of Israel Isaacs formerly of Love Lane and late of Orange Street Portsea Portsea Hants slop seller 1811 and also L Isaacs and H Isaacs Portsea slop sellers April 13 ( Isaacs, Bevis Marks St. Mary Axe Bankrupts 1811. It looks from this data that these are all part of the same family as per our previous posts. If so, you have the lines in London and Portsea which may explain why Isaac Isaacs came to the Portuguese Hospital in London.
What do you think?
Phillip