Rev J W L GEBHARDT and Sarah Margaret PAYNE

[rodgebhardt]

Good Morning,
I am seeking information on the wife of the Rev JWL GEBHARDT, Sarah Margaret PAYNE. I have a copy of their marriage certificate but it does not show her parents, her age at marriage nor place of birth. They were staying in Norwich before the Rev. was posted to South Africa.
Any guidance or pointers would be greatly appreciated.

[christanel]

Hi
Just to confirm a little background for those who may want to help find out more about Sarah Payne
Reverend Johan Wilhelm Ludwig Gebhardt born c 1757 in England, married Sarah in England and their first two children, Wilhelm born c1801 and Henry c 1804 were born there before they left for South Africa in 1810. (your information from RootsWeb)

When and where did this couple marry? Where did you find the information re their marriage? (I am supposed to be answering the questions not asking them)

Christina

[rodgebhardt]

Hi Christina,
Thanks for your reply. The Rev. JWL was born in Mannheim, Germany, as far as I am able to determine, although I have not yet found hardcopy proof thereof. With the aid of "super Sue" I got a copy of their marriage certificate which states they were married in St Jame's Church Westminster on 11 Sept. 1800.
JWL and Sarah had a son George Charles born in 1808 but seems to have died young as he did not come to SA with his parents.
Rod

[helachau]

Find My Past has transcribed records of -

Baptism - George Charles Gebhart, 18 Sep 1808 - parents John William Lewis Gebhart and Sarah Pine.

Marriage Licence - 20 May 1800 for Jn'o W'm L's Gebhart and Sarah Pyne

Surrey Marriages - 31 May 1800, John William Lewis Gebhert, parish St. James' Westminster and Sarah Pyne, of this parish, at Clapham

Note - I have ensured the names entered above are exactly as transcribed

[Sue Mackay]

Hallo Rod. I have moved your thread to General English Family History, as the BMD Certificates Forum is really for post 1837 civil registration queries. Mind you, it doesn't matter too much, as all our forum 'super sleuths' will click on New Posts each day and find stuff wherever it is posted

With the aid of "super Sue" I got a copy of their marriage certificate which states they were married in St Jame's Church Westminster on 11 Sept. 1800.

Actually the marriage entry I sent you is for Holy Trinity Church, Clapham. The entry reads

John William Lewis GEBHART, Clerk, of the Parish of St.James, Westminster in the County of Middlesex, a bachelor, and Sarah PYNE of this Parish, a Spinster, were married in this Church by Licence from ABishop of Canterbury this 31st day of May 1800

Both have signed and the spelling is clearly GEBHART and PYNE

This would indicate that Sarah's home parish was Clapham, and might be a good place to start to track down her baptism. How do you know that her middle name was Margaret? Does this come from a death notice or gravestone in South Africa?

[Sue Mackay]

To avoid possible duplication of effort, here is a link to a Rootsweb posting made by Rod in 2006 concerning JWL Gebhardt. It is in three parts, with most of the information relating to the UK being in Part 2 (see link at foot of Part 1)

It was Johan Wilhelm Ludwig Junior, the son of the Rev GEBHARDT, who was executed in 1822 for mistreating a slave. It's easy to get confused when Google searching, as I know to my cost

The Rev GEBHARDT died in 1825. See here. This makes reference to his surviving son Henry, so presumably George Charles (born in Norwich in 1808) died in infancy.

Who is Johanna Margaretha WOLFF born GEBHARDT, mentioned in the above document?

[rodgebhardt]

Thanks Sue, Johanna Margaretha is listed as being the sister of JWL snr. I have not been able to discover if she was already in SA in 1810 or if she came over with her brother.
During my meandering through this GEBHARDT family I picked up from the late Eric GEBHARDT a note that JWL and Helena were divorced in 1823. I have seen the auction papers but no divorce documents.
Would I be able to view any document relating to the appointment JWL Snr to his post in Paarl? I am trying to plot events in his life as well as that of his family, which will eventually tie up to the trial and execution of his son.
There are a number of 'grey' areas during the trial which Jon GEBHARDT, JWL's great grand son, and I would like to try and unravel. All very interesting when viewed in the context of the socio/political scene of that period.
Thanks to all for their input.
Rod
You can deny the Past
You can deny the Present
You can NEVER deny your Genes

[helachau]

Sue,
Thanks for confirming the Pine/Pyne surname.
I had read about the trial/appeal/execution in several newspapers - must have caused quite a stir at the time.

[geneius]

Kwartaalblad Van Die Suid-Afrikaanse Biblioteek
https://books.google.com/books?id=_5_NAAAAMAAJ

When in 1810, the Rev. J.W.L. Gebhart, his wife and their two young sons arrived to take up residence in the Pastorie, Paarl, now the Oude Pastorie Museum, Rachel was Mrs. Jan Roux and living on Nantes, whose lands adjoined those of "De ...

[geneius]

https://www.e-family.co.za/Meintjes/W...eld%20r1v3.htm

fter four years as a widow, at age 60, Helena married for the third time, to the Reverend Johann Wilhelm Ludwig Gebhardt. Cairns calls this union “most disastrous”. Gebhardt was four years her junior, and had two sons. By all accounts, Gebhardt neglected both the farm and his congregation in Paarl. By 1822 the eldest son, Willem, had become a supervisor on the farm. On the evening of September 10, the slave Joris was severely beaten, and found dead the next morning. Willem was arrested, tried within two weeks, and executed for murder on November 15. Helena and the Rev. Gebhardt were divorced two months later and the farm, her home for 56 years, was sold. She died in Cape Town on 5 Nov 1828. Helena willed her entire estate to Pieter Watney and Maria Josina Watney, the children of John Pigot Watney and Maria Wilhelmina de Waal.