William Williams of Pantycelyn -Help Needed !

[cerirp]

Hello
My name is Ceri Rees-Powell and I live in Milford Haven, Pembrokeshire. I originate from Porth, Rhondda and it has always been held in great belief that my maternal grandmother was one of William William's descendants. As I am now semi retired I have again taken up the reigns to get to the bottom of this !! I have traced my four times great grandfather Evan Williams on the 1851 Census to Merthyr Tydil where he was married to Sarah , and had four children at that time including my three times great grandfather Thomas. Evan stated that he was born in Caio, Carmarthenshire and I have found the name to be Conwil Caio near Llandovery and not too far from Pantycelyn. However I have hit a stumbling block !!! I cannot find him on the 1841 Census, a birth record for him nor any marriage certificate.
Any advice will be much appreciated

[christanel]

Welcome to the British-Genealogy forums

I have moved your post from the Introduce Yourself forum to the Glamorgan forum as it is a research request.

My eyes start to roll when I see all the Welsh names repeated over and over and over. I have enough trouble with the familiarity of my own families surnames.

Retirement is wonderful isn't it? So much time to do all the things we have put off for years - or do nothing at all with great panache.

I am sure those members who are more familiar with Welsh research will be along to help when the Northern hemisphere begins to stir.

Christina

[Allan F Sparrow]

As my mother was from Tylorstown, just up the road from Porth, and her ancestors were from Pembrokeshire, I would like to help if I can. I have had some success in Welsh genealogy!

However, I have hit a problem right away, as - so far at least - I have not found the 1851 census you refer to.

Is this possibly your family in 1861? In Merthyr Tydfil.

Evan Williams 45 born Caio, Cardiganshire [not Conwil Caio, Carnarthenshire]
Sarah 39 born Merthyr, Glamorgan, as are all the the rest except Rachel, born at Llanwonno
Lewis 18
Thomas 16
Richard 13
Margaret 11
Ivor 8
Benjamin 5
Ann 2
Rachel 3 months

If not, so be it!
Now I have what appears to be the above family at Merthyr in 1851, but Evan says they were all born in Merthyr! His widowed mother in law Margret Jones 58 is there. The daughter Margaret [but it does not definitely read like that to me] is said to be 15, however! Given the ages of the others, it probably should read 15 months, which would fit with 1861 and with her being last on the list of children in 1851.

Really, I need more information. One has to work from the known to the unknown.

There are other contributors with Welsh success on their CV, so perhaps they'll join in!

[Allan F Sparrow]

After scraping around a little more, I cannot find a marriage for Evan Williams and Sarah that looks at all convincing at present. It ought to be in the early 1840s...

However, I have found out that [Conwil] Caio, Carmarthenshire, is near the border with Cardiganshire and may once have been considered part of it. Also, a census enumerator in Glamorgan might not find it difficult to confuse the two!

[janbooth]

I assume that he is the Evan WILLIAMS married to Sarah in the 1851 census of Merthyr (HO107/2458, folio 431, page 51) given that they are the only Evan & Sarah WILLIAMS in Merthyr in 1851, together with children Lewis, Thomas, Richard & Margaret plus mother in law Margaret JONES which immediately gives you the information that Evan probably married a Sarah JONES.

Findmypast has the actual parish register image of the marriage of Evan WILLIAMS and Sarah JONES at Merthyr on 9 August 1841 and I think you will find that the fathers' names coincide with the baptismal names of some of their children. I can't give you full details as FMP regulations forbid this, but you can take out a pay per view subscription to view this record and as they have many other Welsh parish register images it could be worth your while to do so.

Using details from this marriage record and from the 1861 details that Allan found in post 3 above, it looks as if Evan could have been baptised at Sion Independent Chapel, Aberystwyth on 7 March 1819 - both Ancestry and FMP have this transcription, and his parents are shown as Richard & Margaret WILLIAMS.

Janet

[cerirp]

Hi Allan
I was in school with a Susan Sparrow (at Porth Grammar) who married one of my friends brothers, small world !. Thank you for your kind offer. I have been down this path many times whenI lived in Porth, when my grandmother was alive, the facts I have are
My great grandfather was William Philip Williams born Cymmer, Porth 1879
His Father Thomas Williams born Cwm Bach, Mountain Ash , Aberdare 1845
His Father Evan Williams born Caio 1816

I have Thomas on the 1901, 1891,1881 living at Cwm George in Trehafod, Porth. On the 1871 Census iI cannot find the exact address but am assuming he is at this address. in fact my grandmother was born at Cwm George in 1902 albeit a different house!
Thomas is on the 1861 Census at Mountain Ash, age 16 along with his parents Evan and Sarah and siblings.
The 1851 Census gives Evan and the family living at Picton Terrace, Merthyr Tydfil, and it's this Census that Evan gives his place of birth as Caio.
I have learnt from experience to take things with a pinch of salt when it comes to the information given on the Census but I cannot find Evan's details further back than this, there are plenty of Evan Williams but I need to find more information on him and Sarah such as a marriage certificate.
Any help would be much appreciated
Cheers
Ceri

[cerirp]

Diolch yn Fawr Iawn Allan !!
Ceri

[cerirp]

Thank you so much Janet
Ceri

[Allan F Sparrow]

Hi Allan
I was in school with a Susan Sparrow (at Porth Grammar) who married one of my friends brothers, small world !.

This Susan was no relation of mine, however! My mother was a Lewis, my father a Sparrow from Surrey (though the family can be traced back to Suffolk) and we had no known Sparrow relations in Glamorgan.

Thanks for the additional details.

The 1851 Census gives Evan and the family living at Picton Terrace, Merthyr Tydfil, and it's this Census that Evan gives his place of birth as Caio.

Oh dear - the one that I found in Picton Street in 1851 does NOT say Caio, it says Merthyr! Whereas the one I found at Mountain Ash in 1861 DOES say Caio. I have just checked the images, and there's no doubt it's that way round.

I have learnt from experience to take things with a pinch of salt when it comes to the information given on the Census but I cannot find Evan's details further back than this, there are plenty of Evan Williams but I need to find more information on him and Sarah such as a marriage certificate.

So right about the pinch of salt. I'm interested in what Janet has found (post 5), as she has the same 1851 census as I have. I looked in FreeBMD for the marriage, and did not find one. As for baptisms, I tried FreeReg as well as pay-sites, but could find nothing in what was supposed to be the right area - but Aberystwyth was not on my list of possible places!

By the way, my Welsh is extremely limited, but I do understand Diolch yn fawr!

[Allan F Sparrow]

I have now found the marriage and baptism that Janet found earlier, but I'm going to take a break from this, as my old head easily gets addled, these days!

Allan