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Thread: My Brick Wall

  1. #1
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    Default My Brick Wall

    Hi,
    I suppose I am going to do what most people do, introduce myself and then try and get some help with a brick wall....I had to have a relative called John Smith!! This branch of my family tree I am really struggling with and despite several attempts nothing seems to help.

    Information I know to date:

    John William Smith
    Born - Approx 1887 (from marriage cert)
    Married - 17th February 1917 - to Annie Martha Millington. On the certificate John is listed as being a "coal miner (now a soldier in the Durham Light Infantry)" with an address of Stoddard Building, Chester Le Street)
    Daughter - Edith Lily Smith - (John was a miner at the time of Edith's Birth and living in Walsall)
    Military - No success tracking down any military records to date

    From the marriage cert I also know his father is William Smith, Colliery Manager (deceased at the time of the marriage)

    I am pretty positive I may have found John in the 1911 census, lodging with a Frederick Long at the Stoddard Buildings, Chester Le Street...which I thought was my breakthrough, but I can not make out the place of birth detailed for John, although I know this may well be inaccurate anyway given the fact that it was completed by his landlord. I have tried all combinations of this place in Derbyshire without success.

    The dangerous "family rumours" that always end up being wrong mention a fighter/criminal in the family called Durham Jack, who was supposed to have been a bit of a character, who is also part of this branch of the tree, but I am struggling to get any further than this..any help or fresh ideas would be appreciated.



    I have attached a small excerpt from the 1911 Census with just the place name on..I hope that would be okay, but please let me know if I need to remove it.

    Thanks in advance

    Colin


  2. #2
    Wilkes_ml
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    I suspect he may be the sister of mary Elizabeth Long , the daughter in law of the head of the household, as she is born the same place as him. So if you can track her, she may help you track John William.

  3. #3
    Wilkes_ml
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    Although I was unable to find a marriage to confirm that Frederick Long had married a Mary Elizabeth Smith, it seems probable as she has the same birth place. The place of birth is definitely Derbyshire, and it looks like Beivnning or Bevinning but I can find no places in any of my parish lists that look anything like that, so it may have been a local place name or a hamlet.

    Now searching for both John William & Mary Elizabeth together in 1901 I found a potential match at Shipley in 1901, a whole family but no parents but a William Smith aged 21 is a Colliery fireman for a stationary engine, a John Smith aged 18 a coal miner, Harry Smith aged 16, a coal miner, and Mary aged E. aged 15, Anni L aged 13, Lilly M. aged 10, Alfred M aged 9 and Charley aged 7 So this ties in with your John William being a coal miner. I wonder if they became orphaned and the eldest son William became head of the house and brought the children up. Ref RG13; Piece: 3149; Folio: 12; Page: 16

    All born Shipley. Looking at a map of the surrounding area, I still can't see any places which look like your John William's place of birth in 1911.

    So looking in 1881, I find the Smith family at Shipley, but now they have their parents with them John J Smith aged 32 and eliza aged 32 ref RG12; Piece: 2664; Folio: 75; Page: 7

    So I wonder if this is your family, and John William gave the wrong father's name on his marriage certificate. Mary Elizabeth's certificate would be interesting if you can find it.

  4. #4
    Wilkes_ml
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    It looks like Frederick Long married December Quarter 1904 at Chester le Street Ref 10a 848 but as it is a typed up transcript of the GRO indexes, it looks like Mary Elizabeth may have been missed off, as on ancestry index there are only 3 names on the page (there should be 4) and one woman is missing, and when I went in manually to check for Mary Elizabeth Smith, I could not find her (unless she married under a different surname and still got missed of the indexing!)

    This marriage would be interesting if it shows that she also give her father as William Smith, then it would mean that the family at Shipley is less likely to be the correct family. If she names her father as John T. Smith, then it will help connect them.

    Also, the witnesses may be other members of family. Were their any witnesses at John William's marriage that could have been relatives?

  5. #5
    Super Moderator christanel's Avatar
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    I found this on FreeBMD

    Marriages Dec 1/4 1904
    Mary Elizabeth Knight Chester le S. 10a 8__

    I looked at the original image and looks like page 848 to me.

    Christanel

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    The witnesses at the wedding of John William Smith and Martha Annie Pitham were J Mc Cormick (15) and Margaret F Stebbings, who married an Abraham Smith, so there could be a connection/lead there, she may be his sister in law.

    Well that should keep me busy for an hour or two later

  7. #7
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    Just found out that the Knights are from Blackwell in Derbyshire famous for mining where there were two pits - "A" winning and "B" winning, therefore I think I can safely assume they were born in the vicinity of the colliery (Bewinning)... you guys have been just the encouragement I needed...thanks for the push

  8. #8
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    I'm confused!?
    Did John have two marriages?
    As first mention is 'Annie Martha Millington' (confirmed on FreeBMD in 1917) but now you mention Martha Annie Pitham marriage?

    Regards Sue (trying to help!)

    Following the possible 'Knight' link I looked for births of Mary Elizabeth and Violet. Looks like they could have been born Nottinghamsire?
    Mary Elizabeth Knight, Jun 1886, Mansfield.
    Violet Knight, Jun 1890, Nottingham
    Last edited by SueP; 04-09-2013 at 11:55 AM. Reason: Additional findings

  9. #9
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    Annie Martha Pitham married William Henry Millington on the 26th October 1910, they had one of their daughters in 1916 and then the next year Annie went on to Marry John William Smith...why are the awkward ones always really awkward...but the potential to be very interesting. I can not locate a death for William Henry Millington so I am unsure if they divorced/separated or he passed away. I assume the latter.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by SueP View Post
    Violet Knight, Jun 1890, Nottingham
    Ignore this - have found the Knights on 1891 (Ref: RG12/2650/94/19 - Mansfield) and 1901 (Ref: RG13/4651/116/28 - Durham) censuses. The 1901 one reveals Violet's first name is actually Harriet. Therefore this is her birth record: Harriet Violetta Knight, Jun 1889, Mansfield.

    I've been thinking that perhaps the Knights and the Smith chap are cousins? But wherever I look I just can't seem to find any links. So am calling it a day! Going to get some sunshine and fresh air to clear the fuddled brain!!!

    BFN Sue

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