Thomas Chapman and Elizabeth Harvey

[harleyallison]

Yes i am.I have looked for a marriage for Thomas Chapman and Elizabeth Harvey 1864 to 1868 anywhere,but only the one in Stepney comes up.This is really head work.Is there any other route that I can go down to find Thomas and Elizabeth.I know they may not have been married but what else could there be?

[pennydog]

The only baptism I can see is 13/9/1867

Mary Ann daughter of Thomas and Eliza. This is the entry for a private baptism in Hayes (Middlesex). Thomas is a labourer.

So I think you can probably discount this one.

[harleyallison]

Everything comes to a dead end.Will have to get Mary Anne's birth cert from Henley.I dont know why as I have one of Thomas and Elizabeth's other daughters birth cert.Just incase Elizabeth changed her name maybe.You never know.Its the only thing left that i can think of before i give up.
Any other ideas would be very welcome
Thank you to everyone who has helped me with this solid brick wall.

[Mutley]

Well I've search and searched but can only come up with the same information as others.

It may be worth ordering the certificate for Mary Ann, as it will also show Thomas's occupation and their address in Watlington.
I'm curious as to why they moved to Oxfordshire, especially Watlington, it was tiny, there was nothing much there. Then a move to Wales. That type of movement in those days was often to do with occupations. Railway Labourer? Was he working on the building of the new lines or terminus? Watlington did not have railway, I don't think?

At least we can check the 1867 Watlington address against the 1861 census. You never know your luck!

[Mutley]

Take a look here
https://
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallingford_and_Watlington_Railway

There was a proposed railway line to Watlington...

The Wallingford and Watlington Railway opened as far as Wallingford in 1866, but poor traffic receipts meant that the planned extension to Watlington was given up in 1868 and the line never reached further than Wallingford.

Maybe Thomas went there to work, Mary Ann was born, the work he envisioned did not materialise and he moved on. Speculation, I know, that is often all we can do.

[Waitabit]

This is not the right marriage for my Thomas and Elizabeth.This Thomas Chapman was born in Southborough,his father George a carpenter was deceased.Thomas,s brother John was also born Southborough was living at the same address in Rutland Street.
1871 census shows Thomas as Railway Inspecter with wife Elizabeth and two children living in Hastings.

Perhaps Rutland st. was a temporary address for the couple before their wedding?

Might this be your Thomas
1861
CHAPMAN, Thomas 21 Lodger Unmarried

21 1840 Railway Ticket Collector b.Reston Kent

Address: Anerley Vale, Battersea

RGO9 451/134/page 9

Do you know just what Thomas' Father was named or what job he did?

Thomas is a signal man on marriage, sound like railway term.

Later being a beer house keeper? people often changed jobs, he may have had an injury which caused him to do so ,or thought it a better way to make a living from home.

Have you definitely found him on a later census with children to be sure who & where he was later? also to prove name of childrens Mother?

Could his first wife have died & Eliza/ beth Harvey become mother to later children?

Whew, sorry ,so many questions- but with out questions we don't get answers.

[harleyallison]

The above Thomas Chapman's are two different people one from Southborough and the other from Willesden..My Thomas according to census was born in 1841 Willesden,Middlesex.In 1871 he was living in Llantrisant Glamorgan,South Wales.In 1868 he had a daughter born in Wallington Oxfordshire.I have been looking for my 1871 census but can not find where i have stored it,to see what Thomas's occupation was in 1871. Mutley said there was nothing in Watlington to move there for so what was he doing there ?Thomas then moved to Llantrisant and there is nothing there either just a small place.It is about 8 miles from the Rhondda .
I have Thomas on the census reports from 1871 to 1911 living in Glamorgan South Wales.I can not find him anywhere before 1871.
On his daughter Alice Chapman's birth cert it states mother as Elizabeth Chapman formally HARVEY.The Elizabeth on the census 1871 onwards has always been birth 1839 Bethnal Green so i dont think that one Elizabeth died.

[harleyallison]

My research
My fathers father was Thomas James Chapman born 1902 to James Chapman b 1875 Somerset.
Mother Florence Chapman b 1876 Glyn Taff.Daughter of Thomas and Elizabeth.
Parents of Florence were
Thomas Chapman b 1841 Willesden Middlesex,Elizabeth Harvey b 1839 Bethnal Green.
Other children of Thomas and Elizabeth were
Mary Ann b 1868 Wallington Oxfordshire
Thomas b 1872 Llantrisant
Henry 1873 b Treforest
Alice b 1880 Pontypridd.I have this birth cert stating mother to be Elizabeth Harvey.

[harleyallison]

I will be ordering Mary Ann's birth cert tomorrow.
Thank you to everyone that has helped me on this nightmare family.
I will let you know the outcome.

[olliecat]

Mutley said there was nothing in Watlington to move there for so what was he doing there ?Thomas then moved to Llantrisant and there is nothing there either just a small place.It is about 8 miles from the Rhondda.

Llantrisant may have been a small town but there was lots of work in this part and the surrounding areas in Glamorgan in the mid to late part of the 19th century. There was an iron mine not so far from Llantrisant as well as a tin plate works and a quarry. Moreover, Pontypridd had been booming for the past twenty years or so with mines opening up in Merthyr Tydfil and other parts of the Rhondda valley. There was also the canal and the Llantrisant and Taff Vale Junction Railway; labourers were needed to transport coal and ore from the valleys down to Cardiff. There was plenty of work for general labourers.

I have been looking for my 1871 census but can not find where i have stored it,to see what Thomas's occupation was in 1871.

In 1871, your Thomas Chapman was a railway labourer and in 1881/1891 his occupation was labourer. I'll post the census refs for the other census years, just to make it easier for people to find him and so that we don't keep muddling him up with the other Thomas Chapman (the beer house keeper who was living in Willesden.)

1871: Piece: 5380 Folio: 70 Page: 22 (living at Bailian, Llantrisant)
1881: Piece: 5282; Folio: 98; Page: 72 (living at 3 Llandaff Rd, Llandaff)
1891: Piece: 4399; Folio: 134; Page: 53 (living at 21 Ivy St, Canton, Cardiff)
1901: Piece: 4399; Folio: 134; Page: 53 (living at 25 Lincoln St, Cymmer)
1911: RG14/32310 SN253 (living at 25 Lincoln St, Cymmer)

In 1911,Thomas states he is a widow. Married 47 years. Had 8 children of which 4 died.

Some of the children's baptisms are on Family Search...

• Henry Chapman on 23 Feb 1873 at Glyntaf, Glamorgan. Occupation of father was lab
• Amelia Ann Chapman on 01 Nov 1874 at Glyntaf, Glamorgan. Occupation of father was quarry man
• Florence Ann Chapman in 1879 at Glyntaf, Glamorgan. Occupation of father was lab

If we include Mary Ann, Thomas and Alice, I wonder who the other two children were?

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

BTW: Your Thomas was living at 25 Lincoln Street in Cymmer in 1901 and 1911. Just to mention that I lived at that address briefly as a small child. 'Tis a small world indeed.
Pity I never came across any clues as to the previous inhabitants of the house; not that I was looking - too busy sneaking down pits and running wild up the mountains.