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  1. #11
    Newcomer to Brit-Gen
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    Hello Dundee10

    Thanks for this. You are absolutely right, since my post I checked the census records myself and the surname clearly appears as YATES in 1851, 1861 & 1871. So, as far as I am concerned, this lead was a red herring.

    My great-grandfather was GEORGE GATES. His employment records give his birth date as 31 May 1847. He consistently claimed to have been born in Germany and may well have changed his name when he came to London. For this reason it has proved impossible to trace his ancestry. He was a mariner and, oddly enough, was in New South Wales in August 1871 where he took out a Miner's Right. But, again, it has proved impossible to learn anything about him from that.

    It's kind of you to offer help but I fear his origins will always be an enigma.

  2. #12
    Super Moderator christanel's Avatar
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    Welcome to the British-Genealogy forums flyingpast.
    Do you have George's marriage certificate to Alice Grover in 1897 Registration district Poplar? Does it give a father's name? The census records giving his place of birth as Germany does not make him German. He was a British citizen born in Germany. Do you have a marriage certificate for his first marriage to Henrietta? Their son Thomas George birth reg 1877 Poplar has his mother's maiden name as Brooks? But I can't find a birth registraton with mmn Brooks for the daughter Henrietta born c 1867. Was Henrietta married previously so her daughter registered in another name or was she Henrietta's illegitimate daughter? So many questions but if you do not want us to look into this any further just say 'Stop"

    Added:- Have just reread your post and see George's father's name was John Gates.
    Christina
    Sometimes paranoia is just having all the facts.
    William Burroughs

  3. #13

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    Their son Thomas George birth reg 1877 Poplar has his mother's maiden name as Brooks?
    If the above Thomas George, son of George and Henrietta are your family it appears Henrietta's birth surname was Brooks and she was a widow when she married George GATES. Do you have a copy of the marriage certificate, and if so is an occupation given for George's father?

    Henrietta Brin
    Marital Status: Widowed
    Marriage Date: 23 Feb 1874
    Marriage Place: St. Thomas, Stepney, Middlesex, England
    Father: George Brooks
    Spouse: George Gates
    Father: John Gates

    Marriages Sep 1866, Poplar 1c 1220
    Henrietta Brooks/Richard BRIND

    BRIND, HENRIETTA MARIA, Mother's maiden name BROOKS
    GRO Reference: 1866 D Quarter in POPLAR UNION Volume 01C Page 693
    Alma

  4. #14
    Dundee10
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    George's father was labourer, marriage cert and more info here:

    https://www.brind.co.uk/Brind/FT/Yaki/flood.html#cert2

    I see that George's birthplace in 1901 is Sunderland, maybe something to keep in mind as that may be where his family came from even if he wasn't born there.

    https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X94F-J8C

  5. #15
    Newcomer to Brit-Gen
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    May 2016
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    Thanks to Dundee10, Almach and Christanel for your posts.

    Between you you have done a pretty thorough job on this family so thank you for that.

    As you have discovered, George Gates' marriage certificate of 1874 states that his father, John Gates, was a 'labourer' and that is all we know about him. Again, Jonathan Brind has posted details of GG's first wife, Henrietta Brin(d), nee Brooks, on his website. There you may also find a reference to a bible belonging to her father, George Brooks, which was given to him in 1832 when he was fourteen. That bible has been handed down through my family and contains records of the Brooks family but no details relevant to George Gates.

    I made contact with Joan Flood last year and she was able to provide new and interesting details of some of George Gates' grandchildren and their descendants but nothing further about George Gates' own ancestry. She also drew my attention to the fact that there is a place called 'Sundernland' in Westphalia which could possibly explain the reference to his birthplace as 'Sunderland' in the 1901 census (except that is written explicitly as 'Sunderland, Durham', though this could be the census taker's own interpolation). Joan says she has researched this possible German connection but without result.

    There seem to be two possibilities, both equally unhelpful. (1) If George Gates was indeed born in Germany he may or may not have been born of British parents and hence may or may not have been a British subject at birth; if not he may have taken or assumed British citizenship on coming to the UK. If the latter then this was done without formality as there are no relevant Home Office naturalisation papers. If he (and his parents?) changed their surname from eg Goetz, Gotts, or several other common and similar German names, then there is no official record of their having done so, and they would in effect become untraceable (2) George Gates may not have been born in Germany but had reasons of his own to say that he had been (eg he may have been illegitimate or an orphan or wished to disown or disguise his family background).

    I have trawled through BMD records from 1874 onwards looking for a plausible date of death for George Gates' father, named as John Gates on his marriage certificate of that year, but have failed to find a likely fit. That too makes me suspicious that GG may have been deceiving us.

    I fear that I have drawn the three of you into a problem that has so far resisted all attempts at a solution. I am most appreciative of all you have uncovered but am afraid that you may be led further onto the same wild goose chase that I have been pursuing for the last 20 years!

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