I'm seeking any help & information regarding the Gray & Waterfield families who are both of well known Roma families.
I am searching for information for the parentage of a Lavinia Waterfield who married Henry Gray. Henry was christened 14th Feb' 1851,East Winch, Norfolk, England & was the son of Robert Gray & Sarah Harris of Cambridge.
Also, Henry's sister, Margaret Gray, b. 1842, married in the mid 1860's a Joseph Waterfield, b. 1838 Tittleshall Cum-Godwick, Norfolk, England, parents unknown.
Lavinia or Joseph Waterfield one could suspect were probably at least close kin if not siblings, being that they married repspectively Henry & Margaret Gray who were siblings & that such family inter connections were quite the norm' amongst Roma families.
Rico
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25-11-2011, 11:46 PM #1RicoGuest
Gray & Waterfield Roma Family ties
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26-11-2011, 12:16 AM #2RicoGuest
Another family connection between the Gray & Waterfield families is through Joseph Waterfield & Margaret Grays son Job Waterfield, b. 1881 in Shereford, Norfolk, England.
Job Waterfield married 7th May 1902 in Swainsthorpe, Norfolk, England, a Susannah Ellen Sellers, b. 1882 Front Row HIghgate, Kings Lynn, Norfolkshire, England.
Suannah Sellers parents were Richard Sellers & Matilda Gray of whom I have no further information.
I am curious as to how & where Matilda Gray fits into the Gray family tree & I would appreciate any help or information regarding her parents or Gray familiy ties.
Job Waterfields grandparents (Margarets parents) were Robert Gray & Sarah Harris. This Robert Gray being the son of another Robert Gray b. circa 1775 Cambridgeshire, England, & Mary Leighton, b. 1777 Isleham, Cambridge, England, (both my direct Gray ancestors)Mary being the daughter of William Leighton & Mary Torrington.
Of Sarah Harris I have only that she was born circa. 1804 in Swainsthorpe, Norfolk, England, parents unknown. The Harris family is another well known Roma family & I would suspect Sarah's parents/family once identified would have many other ties to the Gray family also.
Rico
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26-11-2011, 12:22 AM #3
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Is this Henry Gray and Lavinia in the 1901 census?
1901: RG13; Piece: 1830; Folio: 32; Page: 26.
2 Caravans, Cawston Road, Aylsham, Norfolk
GRAY, Henry 59, head, Horse Dealer (Travelling), East Winch Norfolk
GRAY, Lavina 40, wife, Bedford
GRAY, Lavina 22, dau
GRAY, Thomas 18, son
GRAY, Fanny H 9, dau
GRAY, Charles 7, son
GRAY, Ralph 3, son
GRAY, Job 1, grandson
WATERFIELD, Pooley 20, son in law
WATERFIELD, Roddy 18, step son
WATERFIELD, Sissy 15, step dau
WATERFIELD, Lettie 14, step dau
I can also see a Lavinia WATERFIELD in the 1881 census with a husband called Pooley WATERFIELD.
RG11; Piece: 1931; Folio: 25; Page: 43
Going by the 1901 census, I would suspect that WATERFIELD is not Lavinia's maiden name. I couldn't find a marriage between a Henry GRAY and a Lavinia WATERFIELD. There is a marriage in the index in 1890 in Norfolk for a Henry GRAY and one of the spouses listed is Lavinia LOVERIDGE.
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26-11-2011, 12:35 AM #4
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On checking Family Search, here are some of the marriage details.
groom's name: Henry Gray
groom's birth date: 1852
groom's age: 38
bride's name: Lavinia Loveridge
bride's birth date: 1859
bride's age: 31
marriage date: 15 Sep 1890
marriage place: Sharrington, Norfolk, England
groom's father's name: Robert Gray
bride's father's name: Hookey Loveridge
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26-11-2011, 12:49 AM #5RicoGuest
Hi Olliecat,
Thanks for the quick reply, you caught me unprepaired for such a speedy response.
I believe it more than likely is the same Henry & Lavinia (Waterfield) Gray. This census 1901 Henry Gray's age is stated as 59 which makes him born around 1842 while the Henry Gray I have is recorded as being born 1851 & christened 14th Feb' 1851,East Winch, Norfolk, England, making him 50 years of age in 1901. By memory I have copies of Henry's certificates. Then again this is nothing unusual for Roma as far as exact details go.
I have the same Pooley Waterfield in my data, I believe born around 1855 in Little Cressingham, Norfolk, England who married a Levinia ? Pooley also had a younger brother named Walter Pooley, b. 1857 Lynn, Norfolk, England, but I do not know their parents or have any further information I can substantiate as yet.
Yes, I share your thoughts that Levinia's maiden name may not have been Waterfield & she may well have been the prior wife of Pooley Waterfield but I can't substantiate this any futher as yet. To add some further weight to this Henry Grayy was prior married to a Sarah ? before Levinia came on the scene.
Many thanks again for your fast reply Olliecat.
Rico
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26-11-2011, 1:39 AM #6RicoGuest
Hi Olliecat,
As mentioned, your speedy reply caught me unprepared but I've now have had a little time to digest & re-aquaint myself with these Grays & Waterfields.
It does seem that the census & marriage details you pointed out are the one & same Grays & Waterfields as mine. Apart from Henry's given age in 1901 being a tad older, but this again is nothing unusual for Roma people.
When I was looking at the same census details some time back I remember 'Lavina Gray', daughter aged 22 in the 1901 census throwing me into some doubts. This makes her birth approx' 1879 & 11 years before Henry married Levina in 1890.
Is it just a coincidence her name is Lavina ? All the listed step childrens ages coincide with Levina's previous marriage to Pooley Waterfield pre 1890 as does Henry's son Thomas Gray aged 18 in 1901 by Sarah match.
Fanny 9, Charles 7, Ralph 3 1901 census ages match as children born to & after Henry & Lavina's marriage in 1890.
Lavina aged 22 in 1901 just seems a rather odd coincidence to me. I wonder as I have come across before if Henry & Lavina had a relationship going back much further than their marriage date & overlapping prior marriages & that Lavina may have been a result of such ? or, coincendence of name or, simply another lack of detail or error in information they provided for the census ?
But yes, this does appear to be the one & same Henry & Lavina, & Pooley Waterfield.
Rico
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26-11-2011, 1:54 AM #7
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I thought I'd look for Henry and Lavinia in the 1891 census. Granted the ages are all over the place (sigh)...
1891: RG12; Piece: 1508; Folio 11; Page 15 (crown copyright, care of the TNA)
Caravan 3 & 4, Small Burgh Rd, Stalham, Norfolk
GRAY Henry 36, head, travelling hawker, East Wynch, Norfolk
Levenia 42, wife, Bradford Yorkshire
Lavinia 12, dau, Aylsham Norfolk
Napoleon 9, son, Bintry Norfolk
Adolphe 7, son, Hunworth Norfolk
Rodney 5, son, Cley Norfolk
Silvester 3, dau, Harpley Norfolk
Letitia 1, dau, Gresham Norfolk
This is just after the 1890 marriage. The question being - are all of these Lavinia's children by her previous spouse or do some belong to Henry and his previous spouse? I will see who is with Henry in the 1881 census in a moment and try to work out daughter Lavinia. Since she was recorded under the surname of GRAY rather than WATERFIELD in the 1901 census, I suspect she is Henry's daughter.
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26-11-2011, 2:14 AM #8
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This could be Henry in 1881 (if once again he is disregarding the need to be at all accurate with his age), in which case Lavinia is his daughter.
1881: RG11; Piece: 1930; Folio: 67; Page: 36 (crown copyright, care of the TNA)
Aylsham, Norfolk
GRAY, Henry 34, head, basket maker, East Winch, Norfolk
Sarah A. 37, wife, Ingham Norfolk
Henry 5, son, Aylsham, Norfolk
Aldolphus 2, son, Catfield Norfolk
Lavinia, dau, 9 mo, Aylsham, Norfolk
Edit: I've just found Henry GRAY (I think) in the 1911 census. Oh dear! I can post the info but it's even more confusing.
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26-11-2011, 3:25 AM #9
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So far, I can only see one baptism for a child of Henry's (whether by Sarah or later by Lavinia.) From FreeREG ...
Henry GRAY bap. on 28 Dec 1875 at Catfield, Norfolk. Birth date 20 Nov 1875. Parents Henry and Sarah Ann. Father's occupation Traveling Basket Maker. Notes: No Abode Is Listed
There is this marriage between a Henry GRAY and Sarah, but it is purely a guess and may or may not be the right one. Finding a birth certificate for one of the children would be helpful in order to confirm Sarah's maiden name.
groom's name: Henry Grey
groom's birth date: 1850
groom's age: 21
bride's name: Sarah Anne Barter
bride's birth date: 1847
bride's age: 24
marriage date: 18 Sep 1871
marriage place: Deopham, Norfolk, England
groom's father's name: Robert Grey
bride's father's name: James Ward
Note: Sarah's surname is recorded as BAXTER on another record
(Source Family Search)
There is a possible birth in the index for sons Henry Gray in 1875, Adolphus in 1878 and also daughter Lavinia Gray in 1880. It would also be good to find a birth certificate for a GRAY child born to Henry and Lavinia in order to check her maiden name. However, at this moment I can only find this possibility for son Charles ....
Birth Dec 1893 Aylsham 4B 83
GRAY, Charles
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26-11-2011, 3:34 AM #10
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I just noticed that there are further details of this marriage on FreeREG.
Marriage on 18 Sep 1871 at St. Andrew, Deopham, Norfolk
Henry GREY, 21, bachelor, basket maker, abode Deopham, father Robert GREY, basket maker
Sarah Ann BAXTER, 24, spinster, abode Deopham, father James WARD, labourer.
Witnesses: Henry EVERETT, Elizabeth EVERETT
So, what was the occupation of Henry's father Robert. Does it tie in with basket maker?
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