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  1. #1
    Libbydibs
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    Exclamation Can a tree really go back to year 738 ?

    Over the last few days I have found links to new family members and cross-referenced them with mine and other peoples trees on Anc and FMP. I have found my ancestors on 4 different peoples trees up to now and found that most of the details match. Every so often I think something doesn't fit with the rest, so either don't add it to my tree or add it with a note to say I'm not convinced the details are correct. One tree in particular (Newton Family Tree) has a heck of a lot of matches to my family and matches most of what the other reference trees have.

    The thing that I'm really not sure about is whether it is really possible to trace a line all the way back as far as the year 738. Obviously I can't prove or disprove the details on it so I won't be adding them to my tree without substantial proof that the people existed. Am I being very untrusting or does it seem "too good to be true" that I have found a link that goes so far back.

    The names that I am pretty sure I can verify are Richard Fillingham 1572-1616 who married Katherine Toone 1570-1636. The place name on the record shows as Osgtrpe, Leics although names further back show the place to be called Osgathorpe, Leicestershire. I have seen these names on 4 different members trees. Katherine's parents appear to be Hamlet Toone 1554-1638 and Miss Neel 1558-1620 and they have beautiful coats of arms.

    WOW, I've just stunned myself into silence !!! While typing this I have thrown the name Hamlet Toone 1554 into Google to see what it came up with and found loads of discussions on various genealogy sites. I have also put it into A...Y and there are loads of matches going back to Robert Toone 1500 but stopping there. On the "Newton Tree" (quite a long way down the list of trees that match with Hamlet Toone. Go back further than Hamlet and Robert Toone and scroll all the way over to the right hand side to Henry Toone, again shown with the red coat of arms. Mary Ward is linked with Henry Toone 1580-1620. It is the line from Mary Ward that goes back and just keeps going back and back and back ....

    The person with the oldest birth date listed is called Gwriad Ap Eldir and appears to be from South Wales. The last English name is William Craddock b1245 in Gloucestershire, then the line changes to Welsh sounding names. Have I stumbled on a pretty amazing find or is there some artistic licence being used with names here? I would dearly love to believe that this is all details for real people.

  2. #2
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    Have you contacted the tree owner to ask where the information came from?

    Sue

  3. #3
    Carobradford
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    You are quite right that should never add unsourced data to your tree, and no serious genealogist would publish unsourced work. So you can, as Sue suggested, try and contact the tree "owner", but I frankly doubt that you will be provided with source citations which are sufficient for you to reproduce the research - which is what you should always do, and what source citations are for!

    Caroline

  4. #4
    Valued member of Brit-Gen barbara lee's Avatar
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    Yes, it's possible, especially in Wales, which has a rich tradition of orally transmitted pedigrees and ancient writings. I have recently traced my Welsh ancestors of the 18th century (known from parish records) back through published pedigres to the Kings of Erging, Glywysing and Morgannwg in about 450 or 500 (they weren't very hot on dates, these old Welshmen) then up a a semi-legendary line to Macsen Wledig who was the same man as the Roman Emperor Magnus Maximus, and who was known to have married a Welsh princess when he ruled Britain. He died in 388. The specialists in these things express their reservations, of course, but call it "reasonable" nevertheless.

    See if you can find one of your Welshmen on FamilySearch community trees at

    https://histfam.familysearch.org/

    If the source of the Welshman (or woman) is given there as "Wales: Records Primarily of the Nobility and Gentry. This Welsh database, when complete, will include lineage linked data for approximately 350,000 individuals, living from about 100 A.D. to the mid-1800's. The base data was extracted from Peter Bartrum's "Welsh Genealogies", with other sources such as the Golden Grove book of pedigrees" as additional references." - then you are onto a winner. All those trees are the result of serious scholarship and can be accepted.

    Similarly, if you see people with coats of arms, they should be well-known nobility or gentry and should be in books like Burke's Peerage, so you might be reasonably happy with that.

    But you will have to check the connections up to to there for yourself, if you are to be sure it is reliable. As others have said, you should not just rely on unsourced public trees without documented sources.

    That said, if a lot of people are claiming the same old pedigrees and the same people with coats of arms, there is a fair chance it is worth checking further and not just fantasy!

    Barbara

  5. #5
    v.wells
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    Hate to put a damper on the bubble but as the saying goes "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably isn't". That being said, anything is possible especially if it is sourced and fully documented.

  6. #6
    Libbydibs
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    Thanks for all the wise words. Since I put this question out I have been (and still am) doing a lot of digging. I've found an awful lot of the names can quite easily be verified against a number of other trees. The names that had the family coats of arms can be verified in the same way. By putting them into Google, it comes up with all the same names and coats of arms. I have looked at the profile for the gentleman who has created the tree and he has been doing his research since 1988. There are also a large number of photo's of people and bmd certificates displayed. So when everything is added together it leads me to think I may actually have found a truly amazing family tree. I have just emailed him so with any luck he might share the secret of how he got so far back.

  7. #7
    Mutley
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libbydibs View Post
    There are also a large number of photo's of people and bmd certificates displayed. So when everything is added together it leads me to think I may actually have found a truly amazing family tree. I have just emailed him so with any luck he might share the secret of how he got so far back.
    Good Luck, it would be a dream come true for most of us, who struggle to get back past 1837.

  8. #8
    BeeE586
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    I was and am a great fan of Cadfael who was Welsh and lived in the 14th century. In one of the books he remarks, "Any Welshman who cannot recite his lineage back sixteen generations and more should be ashamed."

    When I read it I was somewhat sceptical but it seems it was true.

    Eileen

  9. #9
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    First forget the comment about "no serious genealogist would publish unsourced work" When I added much of my research online it was not possible to automatically add sources as may be done today.
    Such comments are insults to serious family historians.

    As for a tree going back to 738 perfectly possible but any tree going back that far should be viewed with caution.
    The probability of error is high.
    Cheers
    Guy
    As we have gained from the past, we owe the future a debt, which we pay by sharing today.

  10. #10
    Auntyjan
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    A recent online article...I think it was in the Guardian and I think was entitled something like The Royal We...claimed that it could be proven mathematically that we all come from the same gene pool if you go back far enough, so in all probability are all descended from royalty at some point, the trick is in finding the link. Think about it...2 parents, 4 grandparents, 8 great-grandparents...16, 32, 64, 128, in about twenty generations you have a million ancestors...we all have many of the same million in a vast interconnecting web. on most lines, you'll be lucky to get back to the sixteenth century. Only royalty and nobility are likely to have records predating parish records...so if you do find a line going back that far, chances are that will be your royal or noble connection...something which the mathematicians say we all have, believe it or not...the detective work is in finding it!

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