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  1. #1
    DMurphy
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    Default James and John Murphy from Nenagh

    James and John Murphy born about 1830s left Nenagh - parents Patrick Murphy and Bridget Shanahan died during the famine. Rumour has it that they travelled to Australia via USA during 1850s. Does anyone know why they travelled to USA?
    Would appreciate any information about this family. James was illiterate and spoke Gaelic and it is believed that they met Shanahan cousins in Australia.
    Try tracing James, John or Patrick Murphy

  2. #2
    obbie
    Guest

    Default

    hi
    for this time you will find no official birth records which started for catholics 1864 .
    you must rely on church records in this case probaly baptism .
    good news is yours exist on pay per view site google rootsireland .
    first join .
    then go down left side into countys .
    tipperary north where nenagh is .
    enter murphy , search
    enter fathers first name , search
    hit advanced button in the search field
    enter mothers full name , search
    it says 3 results cost 12 euros , this is for all 3 births which will give copys of whatever is in church reg , note its a typed out record not a copy of original .
    james was born in 1835 his brother john is not recorded but two other siblings are (john could be sean irish for)
    best to buy all 3 records , if sean there grand if not ,
    search for him with fathers name and just bridget , no shanahan her name might be mistranscribed .

    play around with the site you can get quite a lot of info without paying for it
    dont get carried away and buy more credit than you need as theres a time limit as in weeks not hours .
    when buying credit theres a common error of it looking like its chargin more than the 12 euros read ALL carefully .

    finally i looked for parents marriage , no joy , but mothers name could be spelt wrong , couples normally got married in the parish church that wife was from so check out the surrounding countys on web site you might get lucky .

    if you need help just ask ill assist if possible .

    a thought on ireland aus usa .
    if british govt gave them assisted passage to aus and they met cousins there with money they might have decided they had better chance of success in the usa ? or gotten in trouble in aus and had to go quick .

  3. #3
    obbie
    Guest

    Default

    just realized i got there trip wrong way around .
    they went to usa first then onto australia ?
    suppose youd have to get ships records , and with there names being so common it would be hard to pin point which one was correct .
    if they didnt speak english and irish was there native tongue you should be lookin for
    sean Ó Murchada or Ó Murchu or O'Morchoe which would make searching easier but id assume that people would have struggeled to put the name down on paper and they would have then changed there names to english .

    the fact that the priest put there names down as english names in there baptism records complicates things , but some irish catholic priests refused to use irish and put down english or latin .

    good luck with your research

  4. #4
    DMurphy
    Guest

    Default

    Hi Obbie,
    Thanks so much for this information. You're right about the lack of spoken and written english. It complicated their names and their parents names and their children's names. James went to school in Australia to learn to speak and write english. The local teacher boarded with the family and taught at night. It has been suggested that the mother's maiden name could have been Shannon or even Hanrahan in the translation. Apparently their accents were very broad. James married a girl from Tipp - Ellen Nolan. I suppose they were the only ones who could understand each other. She couldn't write either, but she could sew. Her parents were Cornelius and Johanna Murphy. It is unsure whether they knew each other before they came to AUS. They named their children: Bridget, Patrick Francis, Johanna Frances, Cornelius Vincent (after their parent's names) then Michael, James, Phillip Laurence, John Ambrose and Mary Ellen. Thank goodness for John Ambrose - he made the family easy to trace. You are probably right about the names as we have carried on the James, Patrick, Vincent, Michael, Sean, Frances and Ellen to today. I'll have to go and figure out how much 12 euros is in AUS $ today.
    Thanks again for the ideas. There is one more question though? I have just been looking through old ducuments from my Grandfather and I have come across the house they called: Loreto - is there a place near Nenagh called this, as I have noticed that a lot of people called their houses after places in their homeland. I know it has nothing to do with my Grandmother's family as she was from New Ross, County Wexford.
    Hope to hear your views on this one.
    D
    Quote Originally Posted by obbie View Post
    hi
    for this time you will find no official birth records which started for catholics 1864 .
    you must rely on church records in this case probaly baptism .
    good news is yours exist on pay per view site google rootsireland .
    first join .
    then go down left side into countys .
    tipperary north where nenagh is .
    enter murphy , search
    enter fathers first name , search
    hit advanced button in the search field
    enter mothers full name , search
    it says 3 results cost 12 euros , this is for all 3 births which will give copys of whatever is in church reg , note its a typed out record not a copy of original .
    james was born in 1835 his brother john is not recorded but two other siblings are (john could be sean irish for)
    best to buy all 3 records , if sean there grand if not ,
    search for him with fathers name and just bridget , no shanahan her name might be mistranscribed .

    play around with the site you can get quite a lot of info without paying for it
    dont get carried away and buy more credit than you need as theres a time limit as in weeks not hours .
    when buying credit theres a common error of it looking like its chargin more than the 12 euros read ALL carefully .

    finally i looked for parents marriage , no joy , but mothers name could be spelt wrong , couples normally got married in the parish church that wife was from so check out the surrounding countys on web site you might get lucky .

    if you need help just ask ill assist if possible .

    a thought on ireland aus usa .
    if british govt gave them assisted passage to aus and they met cousins there with money they might have decided they had better chance of success in the usa ? or gotten in trouble in aus and had to go quick .

  5. #5
    obbie
    Guest

    Default

    lucky you !
    in tipp south , same web site .
    Cornelius nolan and Johanna Murphy are parents to margaret 1834 cornelius 1838 cost 8 euros for both . (5euros for 1)
    should have mentioned that you could just buy james baptism for 5 euros . they give a group discount for the 3 .

    johanna murphy , id wonder if some how related by blood to your tipp north murphys , it was common enough for grandchildren or gt grandchildren to marry .

    loreto is a religious name usually holly sisters or schools or holy wells .
    the fact that your irish speaker could afford passage not just to aus but through usa to aus , and family could afford english lessons and that they owned a named house not a hovel on rented land would give me the impression of money .
    the parents died in the famine you think , people seem to think that everyone that died in famine sterved to death , this is not true many diseases were rampant and killed wealthy as well as poor (cholera , diferent fevers , etc etc) so id say there a possability your family were somewhat wealthy .
    did 3rd sibling get house and land and give younger siblings money to leave ?
    just because they couldnt read nor write english dosent mean they couldnt read and write irish , remember old irish was written different than modern irish and therefore english alphabet

    when/if you get two of the births nolan and murphy search through these to see were they landholders , compare addresses .
    https://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffi...tion/index.xml
    go into + magnifying glass to see addresses
    https://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffi...30&Submit.y=14
    enter nolan and search for address , land could have still been in cornelius fathers name , or he could have been a townie .

    like i say you can play around with rootsireland website and get quite a bit of info for free .

    goodluck , if you get a parish or address or church let me know and ill have a look for you .

    p.s i live in clare next county over

  6. #6
    Mutley
    Guest

    Default

    I have family from Nenagh, my nana was Bridget Hogan, father Thomas, mother Margaret Madden.
    I used to spend my holidays there as a child, perhaps our families knew each other once upon a time.
    It was only a tiny town and I know in the 1920s my family were quite poor and lived in a small rented house, mum often said they could not afford shoes so I think obbie could be right, that your family had money.

    I found quite a lot of information from the rootsireland website, worth the money, especially as it is for instant downloads. I only wish the UK had similar.

    Good Luck in your research

  7. #7
    DMurphy
    Guest

    Default

    Thanks Mutley,
    Hogans and Maddens haven't surfaced in our Irish family yet. Our James Murphy seemed to be a bit of a farmer and a horse man here in AUS. He bred buggy horses and clydesdales on his property. I'm off to view information from your leads.
    DMurphy

  8. #8
    DMurphy
    Guest

    Default

    Thanks Obbie,
    It is good to get the local point of view. I went to IRE in 1997 but I didn't know about Nenagh and my Murphys then. Did cross from Clare to Tipp across a river, can remember it very clearly. Murphys had land and bred horses - buggy horses and clydesdales for carting. James had shares in the local dairy co-op and 4 of his children became teachers, one joined the railways - later became Major of Port Melbourne and not sure what the other 2 did. I wished I'd asked my dad more questions about his family. I'm off to view some info on the web. Before I go, can you tell me a little more about the local language? When we were growing up we were big fans of the Tommy Makem and the Clancy Bros and we loved the Gaelic songs they sang - Was north tipp generally a gaelic speaking area? I know that there are places where it is popular.
    Keep the ideas coming, this is the best info I've had in years.
    DMurphy

  9. #9
    obbie
    Guest

    Default

    im no expert !
    but from what ive been taught ,
    irish was the language spoken by mostly country folk further away from cork dublin and belfast even more so .
    cork kerry tipp clare galway mayo sligo donegal very strong then . now ? small parts of kerry galway sligo and arran islands
    if you wanted to deal with english landlords priests teachers civil service , english had to be spoken . teachers refused to teach it from pressure from govt.
    irish was seen as low , poor , uneducated , uncouth , so after famine everyone really had to speak english , and did .
    all irish names were changed to english , towns villages to english .
    look at 1901 1911 censuses you will find very few irish names and all the towns villages townlands were made more english but this was a process that had been going on for some time .
    irish is nearly a dead language , its taught in schools as second language .
    its under the english named town signs in irish .
    onless the irish state makes it the 1st language i think it will always struggle , my nieces go to an irish primary school but will probaly go to an english speaking secondary school .
    do i speak it ? no can i speak it ? no , id struggle to put a sentance together ! i didnt see it as important but now realize its what we are , IRISH !
    so your ancestor who lived and spoke irish went to a sea port dublin limerick cork belfast where no irish was spoken , to board a ship to usa or aus possibly to england and then onwards , his name was either translated into english if someone could or written phonetically .
    the townies would have laughed at this ignorant country bumkin ! no wonder he learned his english as fast as possible .
    im not ranting but its just a very sad fact !

    an aside . from what you say breeding horses etc etc he would of had to have a knowledge of this , a poor country folk wouldnt have been able to afford a nag or donkey no matter a horse , so he had a knowledge of horses and made well of himself .
    it will be very interesting to see there given addresses on births .
    goodluck
    if your interested in the irish lanuage and its use im sure theres plenty of sources on line more educated than me !

  10. #10
    marriedaMurphy
    Guest

    Default James Murphy made it to Australia

    Quote Originally Posted by DMurphy View Post
    James and John Murphy born about 1830s left Nenagh - parents Patrick Murphy and Bridget Shanahan died during the famine. Rumour has it that they travelled to Australia via USA during 1850s. Does anyone know why they travelled to USA?
    Would appreciate any information about this family. James was illiterate and spoke Gaelic and it is believed that they met Shanahan cousins in Australia.
    Try tracing James, John or Patrick Murphy
    Hi
    we know that James Murphy baptised june 1835, son of Patrick Murphy and Bridget Shanahan made it to Australia. But ... I was wondering how do we know his parents died during the famine? How do we know they travelled to USA first?
    The place James Murphy ended up was Devenish Australia, I wonder how Devenish Australia got its name, the Irish Devenis is close to Glanighile (60 km) where James Murphy was baptised.


    Trawling the web I also find that it mentions that somewhere there is a record of the baptism of Patrick, son of James and Honora Murphy.

    It is very interesting to be part of this forum
    jo

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