Another thread on patronymics

[Ms Tarfgi]

Another thread on patronymics reminded me of something I've been thinking about for a while:

I don't know whether my Symmons/Simmins/etc ancestors used patronymic names before the 19th century. They lived in rural north Pembrokeshire and spoke Welsh as a first/?only language. Yet the Symmons surname goes back many centuries in this part of Pembrokeshire and is fairly common. I cannot find a definite link with other families. Did my lot decide to stick with 'Symmons' after one rellie called Simon, as they wished to be associated with the rich families (crachach) in the neighbourhood?
Obviously Symmons is not a Welsh name, but was around in the area since the 13th century; I've always assumed it is Norman.

[Sue Mackay]

Pembrokeshire I have sometimes heard referred to as "little England beyond Wales", so it may be that surnames were adopted earlier. The following quote is taken from Gareth's Help Page

The ap system survived in a shorthand form for some time , a man known once as Dafydd ab Ifan might have become David Evan. his son may have been known as Thomas David and his grandson as Evan Thomas.The latter's son may have become David Evan or David Thomas , if the second then a permanent surname could be said to have settled in a family. The whole process evolved at a different pace throughout different communities in Wales, generally speaking , earlier in the south and south east, later in the upland areas, earlier amongst the gentry, later among the labouring people. Also depending on the degree of anglicisation and urbanisation The timescale of the adoption of a fixed surname may vary from south Pembrokeshire, with a similar timescale to England , to mid C19 in parts of Caernarfonshire.

[Peter Goodey]

I don't know whether my Symmons/Simmins/etc ancestors used patronymic names before the 19th century.

Won't the normal course of family history research answer that point?

[Ms Tarfgi]

To Sue: little England beyond Wales was south Pembrokeshire which was much more anglicised than north where my ancestors came from. Thanks for the quote.

To Peter: I am stuck at 1771 when my ancestor Thomas Simmins was born. Was he the son of Simon something or something Symmons whom I can't find? I don't know how I'd find the former as I cannot find any record of Thomas's birth or christening (he was (a non-conformist).

[Geoffers]

I am stuck at 1771 when my ancestor Thomas Simmins was born. Was he the son of Simon something or something Symmons whom I can't find? I don't know how I'd find the former as I cannot find any record of Thomas's birth or christening (he was (a non-conformist).

Any possible record on BMDregisters? (free search, pay-per-view) - remembering that someone born in one place may have been baptised in another and possibly much later.

Was this a landed or wealthy family in the habit of leaving wills?

[Ms Tarfgi]

Thanks for your suggestion Geoffers. Thomas (my g g grandfather) was an ag lab right up to his death in his mid eighties (Don't think he could have done much labouring at that age!) He was a Baptist and the earliest record I have of him was his marriage in Mathry church (record from Pembs Record Office). He was born in Mathry and died in Brawdy (BMD records) just a few miles away, all in N Pembs. So no, not a traveller.

So definitely no prospect of a will, in fact when his widow died in her nineties! she was recorded as a pauper, fortunately living as a boarder, not in the workhouse.

Nothing on FamilySearch, nothing on any A****y records, nothing (so far) from Pemb RO, just nothing - the Symmons's came from outer space.

[Peter Goodey]

nothing (so far) from Pemb RO

So what have you searched at Pembroke RO so far?

[Ms Tarfgi]

Only Parish Records. I hope to go back to Haverfordwest again soon to see what else they have.

I must mention here that while there a few months ago I did find a Thomas Symmons buried in March 1784 in Mathry (he had fathered a "natural" child in 1757). Also a Hugh Symmons who was buried in Mathry in 1767. Possible father and grandfather of my Thomas, but no proof.

If they are ancestors, I wonder why they weren't using the patronymic system at this time. Hugh btw was a farmer.

[Peter Goodey]

Only Parish Records.

Oh. So you have searched the registers of the established church?

I wondered if you might have been sticking to Baptist records for the baptism and was going to suggest that you search parish (ie Anglican) registers.

[Ms Tarfgi]

Yes Peter, I keep an open mind, me being a Catholic after generations of Baptists, with the occasional Anglican from England. lol

I have also searched Baptist records, so no stone unturned.