Where is Hillbank?

[Karen Newman]

All in all - if this is the only mention of a Hillbank in Surrey as a place of birth for anyone in various census records - and no one comes up on a quick 1901 search for example - I think it would probably be best to ignore this as a likely red herring - and concentrate on what you do have

Good Luck

Sue

Thanks, Sue. I was clutching at straws, I guess. So frustrating when it seems that John was born in Woolwich according to later records, but no baptism found as yet. So I thought 'aha, perhaps all will be revealed' when I saw Hillbank.

I have imparted the information about HMS Warspite, and the Army birth reg that I mentioned in an earlier post to my relative. He is inclined to send off for the cert. I will post the results here.

[SueNSW]

Look forward to hearing any other outcomes - and I certainly understand the straw clutching - with a 'common' name like his it is sometimes all we can do!

If nothing else I'm intrigued at the location of the Army birth - Manmore doesn't seem to come up in any searches - the regiment in question were in South Africa until 1861 - returning to Britain during that year - so I'm guessing it's there somewhere - but my curiosity is aroused

Goos Luck with it all

Cheers
Sue

[Karen Newman]

Ok, here's another thought.

Suppose Richard Russell was John's father, and John was indeed born in Woolwich.

On 18 Dec 1859, Richard RUSSELL marries Margaret MILLER in the Church of St Mary Magdalene WOOLWICH. Richard is a sawyer, and his father is Richard, a coal porter. The bridegroom signs his name but the writing is not very neat. The witnesses are NOT Russells. Margaret father is JOHN. (Courtesy of LMA records on Ancestry).

I think they are at RG9; Piece: 405; Folio: 18; Page: 39 in 1861 (in Woolwich Dockyard). Richard born c1839 Plumstead, Margaret c1843 in Scotland. Richard is a sawyer. Looking back at the 1851 census, there is indeed a Richard with a father Richard born around the right time in Plumstead (HO107; Piece: 1590; Folio: 413; Page: 28), though his father is a labourer in the dockyard, not a coal porter, though he could of course have been a coal porter in the dockyard!

On the 1871, Richard and Margaret are at RG10; Piece: 76; Folio: 86; Page: 35 and Richard is a POLICE CONSTABLE in Chelsea. One of the children is HAROLD aged 8, born in CHARLTON. I think son Richard J (on the 1861 census) had died by 1871. There are other children, Agnes, Ada and Albert.

So is Harold really John Harold? If born in Charlton next Woolwich, then the birth should be under Lewisham reg dist. No JOHN HAROLD , but a JOHN and a HARRY in 1863 with the same page number. No LMA baptisms on Ancestry.

By 1881, I can find no trace of the family. I think Albert died.

Darn!

[Geoffers]

But why Hillbank? I wonder if he knew where he was born.

Assuming that the census entry and soldiers' papers relate to the same person, he knew he was born in Woolwich. So the question then comes as to why the odd birthplace in 1891?

He was a soldier, one of a unit. Some army clerk would have completed the census return, presumably from a muster or some other written source. So a chance exists there for a transcription error. The enumerator copied the schedule into his book allowing for another pint at which a mistake may have been made.

If you look at the entry above John RUSSELL, it relates to Charles POWELL bn Millbrook. Perhaps this was something as simple as the clerk/enumerator being interrupted in his work and when he returned misread the wrong line, or thought he could remember the birthplace but in fact didn't............."now where was he born.......... 'illbr............illba.............oh yes, Hillbank."

Edit - I've carried on reading the thread and seen SueNSW came up with the same idea before me.

[Geoffers]

On the 1871, Richard and Margaret are at RG10; Piece: 76; Folio: 86; Page: 35 and Richard is a POLICE CONSTABLE in Chelsea. One of the children is HAROLD aged 8, born in CHARLTON. I think son Richard J (on the 1861 census) had died by 1871. There are other children, Agnes, Ada and Albert.

So is Harold really John Harold? If born in Charlton next Woolwich, then the birth should be under Lewisham reg dist. No JOHN HAROLD , but a JOHN and a HARRY in 1863 with the same page number. No LMA baptisms on Ancestry.

Certainly a possibility - can you locate a corresponding death for either John or Har(old/ry)?

[Karen Newman]

can you locate a corresponding death for either John or Har(old/ry)?

Nothing leaps out from online resources. I will add them to the list of possibles for more in depth research.

There is a birth in 1863 for a Harold Russell in Greenwich reg dist as well.

Odd that the whole family on the 1871 seems to disappear. Margaret may well have remarried if Richard died, or returned to Scotland, but I haven't found any trace of her, or the two girls, or indeed Harold.

A question: is the witness to the enlistment in the army likely to be a friend/relative or a military person? In JOHN RUSSELL's case it is HENRY B WOOD. On a later service record (1887) for one of my relatives, there is a box for the 'bringer' (who in his case was his brother), but no such box in 1877 for John.

[Geoffers]

A question: is the witness to the enlistment in the army likely to be a friend/relative or a military person? In JOHN RUSSELL's case it is HENRY B WOOD.

On all of my own army enlistments from this period, the only people named in the attestation are the person joining and soldiers involved in the recruitment.

[Karen Newman]

I guessed that would be the case!

Thank you.

[Karen Newman]

The two avenues to explore were the NMM records for Warspite (and any other training ships) and the Military birth cert for J H Russell 1861.

Sadly, the NMM library is not open on the days I can get there (until new library opens in 2012), so that has been put on hold, due to other commitments. Plus discharge records for the year John signed up for the army (1877) no longer exist (assuming he went from one to the other). So I will have to look at admission records, I guess.

And the birth cert was for JOHN HENRY RUSSELL, parents Daniel and Ann. I was hoping for John HAROLD Russell, and father's name Richard (per marriage cert) or something beginning with A (from army record).

MANMORE (place of reg on the GRO index) turns out to be ORANMORE.

[Karen Newman]

I decided to pursue the RICHARD RUSSELL who was a policeman in Shrewsbury to see if I could rule him out. I could not find him in 1861, and speculated that he too may have been in the army. Sadly, there is no record for him in the 'Chelsea Pensioners' series on FMP.

The Shropshire Record Office have confirmed that he joined the Shrewsbury Police in 1865. On the baptism entry for his first child (1864), he is a sergeant in the 58th Foot. (I do not have a copy of this, as SRO kindly supplied the info when I mentioned he might have been in the army, but I wonder if the '8' might have been a badly-written 3, as the 53rd Foot was the Shropshire Light Infantry). I still can't locate Richard in 1861.

I am currently waiting for a copy of his marriage cert (1862), to see if he was a widower, what his occ was, and who the witnesses were. SRO are also sending me further details of his police career which I hope may rule him out, or better still, in.