Where is Hillbank?

[Karen Newman]

He is connected to my tree through marriage (I am trying to help a relative track him down).

Edith Fanny BODDY married John HAROLD Russell in 1893. The marriage cert has his Father as Richard, police inspector (this is as clear as can be on the cert). Contradicts the 'A Russell' on the service record. On the 1901 & 1911 censuses, John Harold Russell shows his place of birth as Woolwich and 1865 as year of birth. He is not with Edith in 1911, but I understand they reconciled later on.

Nowhere on the service record does he have a middle name of Harold. Wife Edith and his two children are shown on the service record. I note, however, that the John on the 1891 is shown as married.

There are no census entries for a John with a father Richard who is a policeman born around the right time. The only Richard Russell who is a police inspector around the time of John's marriage was born in Devon in c1837 and marries in 1862 in Shropshire. I cannot trace that Richard before 1862 (other than a baptism on the IGI and a possible on the 1841 census). It has occurred to me that he may well have been in the army, and abroad.

It has also occurred to me that John may not have known who his father was.

[Mutley]

I wonder if he was on HMS Warspite?
Have you looked at the Portcities London website, you might find a clue.

[Geoffers]

He is connected to my tree through marriage (I am trying to help a relative track him down).

Okedoke just to check - does the relative who is directly descended from this chap have marriage and birth certificates for one of his children which shows the father to be 'John Russell'?

Does any of that information tie up with the named children on the service record?

Bearing in mind that the name RUSSELL occurs quite frequently, I just want to make sure that you've identified the right chap in the 1891 census.

The difference between John RUSSELL and John Harold RUSSELL would not particularly bother me, as I have family members who have swapped forenames in a most annoying way.

Unless there was more than one - The marriage record found for John Harold RUSSELL and Edith Fanny BODDY would seem to match the service record.

It has also occurred to me that John may not have known who his father was.

Which may bring an alternative meaning to the name - perhaps the indefinite article was intended as in - "My father is A Russell"

Alternatively, maybe Richard Russell had two forenames and was recorded differently at different times? - or the information on the service record was transcribed from some other note and the a capital R was mistaken for captial A?

Does Richard RUSSELL turn up in Sutton around 1877-1881? (census, directories?)

[Karen Newman]

Okedoke just to check - does the relative who is directly descended from this chap have marriage and birth certificates for one of his children which shows the father to be 'John Russell'?

Many thanks, Geoffers, for your thoughts.

The marriage cert for one of the children (from whom my relative is descended) shows his father to be John Harold Russell, licensed victualler. John Harold Russell apparently ran the Anglers Hotel in Teddington (family story) but he is running a hotel in Ludgershall in 1911. His death in Teddington dies in with the death cert on the service record (1940).

One of the children of this marriage is still alive and remembers her grandfather, John Harold Russell. It was she who told of the split between him and Edith Fanny (born out by the 1911 census).

I will have to ask about the birth certs for the children but I am fairly sure my relative has these.

I cannot be sure that the John on the 1891 is the same man.

I cannot find a Richard Russell from Sutton on the censuses but will try directories as you suggest.

[Karen Newman]

I wonder if he was on HMS Warspite?
Have you looked at the Portcities London website, you might find a clue.

Wow, I had not come across the Marine Society before. I had not thought to find a record for a 'boy' on a ship, there is certainly no-one that fits on TNA Seamans records, but this opens up a whole new avenue.

Thank you, Mutley!

[Geoffers]

The marriage cert for one of the children (from whom my relative is descended) shows his father to be John Harold Russell, licensed victualler.

Good

John Harold Russell apparently ran the Anglers Hotel in Teddington (family story) but he is running a hotel in Ludgershall in 1911. His death in Teddington dies in with the death cert on the service record (1940).

Excellent. Please forgive the earlier questioning, but I hate to see people following the wrong line and so wasting valuable time.

I cannot be sure that the John on the 1891 is the same man.

On the plus side, you do have his service record which gives some other useful snippets.

I am inclined to the idea that this is the same chap and the census may just have the marital status wrongly recorded (it happens).

As a passing thought, any trace of John Harold RUSSELL's birth, either in freebmd - or - in the regimental registers of births (in case his dad was in the army, a possibility if he was born in Woolwich or that area).

[Karen Newman]

Thanks Geoffers, I value your opinion, and don't for one minute mind your questioning.

But why Hillbank? I wonder if he knew where he was born. If Mutley's suggestion is right, and he was on HMS Warspite, he may have been a 'charity case'. Nothing wrong in that, but it does make tracing his parentage harder, in some respects. According to family lore, he had various illustrious careers, but none of them seem to be substantiated completely, so I wonder if he 'invented' himself.

I have looked the baptisms for the period (LMA on Ancestry) for Woolwich, but he does not appear there. FreeBMD - several possibilities for the general area.

Regimental births - good point - there is a John H Russell for 1861 (the only John around that time) place Manmore, regiment 59th. Worth a punt, I feel, but it's not my money to spend!

I think a trip to have a look at the Marine Society records may be in order (which I understand are at the NMM in Greenwich).

[Mutley]

Good Luck Karen.

I searched on Ancestry for any other people born 1864 +/-10 in Hillbank, Surrey but he was the only one. I also wondered if it could be the name of a little row of cottages or a tenement or building somewhere rather than a parish or place.

[SueNSW]

Looking at a few of the 25 pages of this return - my gut feeling is that whoever filled it in (enumerator or Army clerk??) wasn't 100% accurate - and who could blame him, at the time it must have seemed like an onerous task - and he was possibly also geographically challenged!

It looks as though he may have initially put place names in - and then gone back to add counties - there are full stops after many place names - and counties etc seem to be in a slightly lighter ink - though I guess this could be a problem with the scan??

The very first entry on page 1 - the Captain - was recorded as born Colchester - SUFFOLK as are a few others - he also has Saffron Walden in SUFFOLK (both are Essex), spells some place names wrong, uses India for some places but East Indies for Agra

All in all - if this is the only mention of a Hillbank in Surrey as a place of birth for anyone in various census records - and no one comes up on a quick 1901 search for example - I think it would probably be best to ignore this as a likely red herring - and concentrate on what you do have

Good Luck

Sue

[Karen Newman]

Good Luck Karen.

I searched on Ancestry for any other people born 1864 +/-10 in Hillbank, Surrey but he was the only one. I also wondered if it could be the name of a little row of cottages or a tenement or building somewhere rather than a parish or place.

Yes, I too wondered at that. Probably will never know!