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  1. #1
    wbaynton
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    Default Richard Herbert 1839 s/o Richard & Ann

    I'm looking for some assistance pls in locating the birth and census of Richard Herbert 1839 Oxfordshire (my mother's ggf), parents Richard and Ann per his Oct 1868 marriage cert in Ontario. His birth date is reported in the Canadian 1901 census as 10 Apr 1829, but I believe that it should have been 1839, as the marriage cert and 1881 say 1839. I have no idea when he emigrated and whether it would have been with his family.

    I have unsuccessfully sought him out in an ancestry freebie trial that has expired, and have been able to find a Richard 1834 and Richard 1829 in the censes, but not 1839. I found my fellow in IGI with parents, but suspect this was sourced from the marriage record. I've also found nothing from Free BMD.

    It seems to me that there were a number of Herberts in Banbury, but I have no idea from what place my fellow hails.

    Can you pls assist in trying to locate the birth of this fellow (and I'll then need some census tracking help)?

    Many thks.

    Bill

  2. #2
    RobinC
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    1871 census:

    Richard Herbert 37 Banbury Labourer
    Harriett Herbert 37 Oxford
    Harriett Ann Herbert 15 Banbury
    William Herbert 6 Banbury
    Shirley Herbert 3 Banbury

    1851:

    Richard Herbert 49 Banbury Post Man
    Ann Herbert 47 Dartford, Gloucestershire
    Richard Herbert 17 Banbury
    Charlotte Herbert 16 Banbury
    Thomas Herbert 13 Banbury
    Ellen Herbert 11 Banbury
    William Herbert 6 Banbury

    1841:

    Richd Herbert 35 Oxfordshire Post Man
    Ann Herbert 35 Unknown
    Joseph Herbert 14 Oxfordshire
    Mary Herbert 12 Oxfordshire
    James Herbert 9 Oxfordshire
    Richd Herbert 7 Oxfordshire
    Charlotte Herbert 5 Oxfordshire
    John Herbert 3 Oxfordshire

    I doubt this is your Richard though?

  3. #3
    wbaynton
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    Thks, Robin. Unfortunately, the 1841 & 1851 are of the Richard 1834 and not my Richard 1839 (I'd found these plus 1861 before). It may well be that there are surname variants (i.e. Hibbert, ), because one of these was "Herbers". Any chance you can locate Richard 1839? Bill

  4. #4
    RobinC
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    I've found a Richard Herbert born 1811 in Banbury but he's married to a "Sarah" so I don't think he's a match unless she used the name Ann as well?

  5. #5
    wbaynton
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    I'm assuming his mother went by Ann because that is what was stated by the son (my Richard 1939) in his marriage cert. I only mentioned Banbury because that is what I observed of those who didn't match in my search. He could come from anywhere in Oxfordshire. I'm assuming that the family, if in the census, is there in 1841 and 1851 - again, I don't know when they emigrated, but I do know he married in late 1868 in Ontario. Bill

  6. #6
    wbaynton
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    I have some further information. It is certain that he was in Ontario at its 1871 census at the age of 32 and a Servant. I still don't know if he came alone or with his family, but his marriage was to an Ontario born...

  7. #7
    janbooth
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    Bill,

    According to the Oxfordshire FHS Marriage Index, a Richard HERBERT married an Ann GREEN at Banbury on 29 March 1826 and this is confirmed by the FHS PR Transcripts of Banbury with it stating that both were of the parish of Banbury and both unmarried. The witnesses were Charles WINCOTE & Eliza ENDALL. Looking for baptisms to this couple on the transcripts, I have come up with the following:

    26 December 1828 Mary Ann HERBERT daughter of Richard & Ann, Parsons Meadow Lane, Labourer
    28 October 1831 James HERBERT son of Richard & Anne, Parsons Meadow Lane, Porter & Watchman
    7 February 1833 Richard HARBERT son of Richard & Ann, Parsons Meadow Lane, Labourer
    22 April 1835 Charlotte HERBERT daughter of Richard & Anne, New Land, Postman
    8 November 1837 John HERBERT son of Richard & Anne, Broad Street, Postman
    22 July 1840 Ellen HERBERT daughter of Richard & Anne, Broad Street, Postman

    BUT I do not think this is your family because the Richard above seems to be in Grimsbury in the 1891 census by which time your Richard is in Canada. Back to square 1....

    The only other marriage on the Marriage Index of a Richard to an Anne is on 6 September 1820 at Wigginton of a Richard HERBERT, widower to Anne HARTLEY of Milcombe. Unfortunately, I do not have the PR transcripts of either Wigginton or Milcombe so I cannot check any baptisms to this couple for you. However, they are on the 1841 census of Wigginton and they do have a son Richard but he was born c1829 not 1839. These are the only 2 Richard HERBERTs with father Richard mother Ann that I can find on the 1841 census in Oxfordshire.

    The only other Richard HERBERT I can find on the 1851 census with a father Richard, other than the Richard born c1833 at Banbury, is one born c1836 in Oxfordshire who is living in Camberwell, Surry.

    There is a family tree on Ancestry for what looks like your Richard - he married an Eliza CHANCE - and this gives a sourced citation that he arrived in Canada in 1859 aged 30 (source is 1911 census of Canada).

    Sorry not to be of more help.

    Janet

  8. #8
    wbaynton
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    Actually, very helpful, Janet.

    Yes, the Postman's family and parents above are what I tracked 1841-1861, when that Richard was not there in 1861.

    The only other marriage on the Marriage Index of a Richard to an Anne is on 6 September 1820 at Wigginton of a Richard HERBERT, widower to Anne HARTLEY of Milcombe. Unfortunately, I do not have the PR transcripts of either Wigginton or Milcombe so I cannot check any baptisms to this couple for you. However, they are on the 1841 census of Wigginton and they do have a son Richard but he was born c1829 not 1839. These are the only 2 Richard HERBERTs with father Richard mother Ann that I can find on the 1841 census in Oxfordshire.
    There is a family tree on Ancestry for what looks like your Richard - he married an Eliza CHANCE - and this gives a sourced citation that he arrived in Canada in 1859 aged 30 (source is 1911 census of Canada).
    Hmmmm?....

    I just went and rechecked the referenced 1901 & 1911, link follows (note name misspelled to Herbet in 1901):
    https://automatedgenealogy.com/uidlin...?uid=150131632

    1901 is where I picked up the birth date and, because of 1839 in 1881 (and, as of last eve), 1839 in 1871 and 1839 on his marriage cert, I believed the 1829 in 1901 was in error and should be 1839. Now I'm wondering if either he was too dotty by 1901+ to have his birth year given correctly or he misstated it decades earlier. If he's actually 1829, your 1829 above, then, would fit.

    Yes, Eliza Chance is his wife (and my ggm). I don't have access to Ancestry. If you can assist in connecting me with its author, I'd appreciate it. I'm stunned enough that it could be mine and I've forgotten the emigration, but I just looked at my system and there's no mention, and that is what would be uploaded.

    All told, it looks to me like you did a pretty good job at sorting through some of the confusion.

    Bill

  9. #9
    Brick wall demolition expert!
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    Hello Bill,
    Have you taken the marriage information from the actual marriage register or from an indexed transcription?

    As well as giving a birth date of 1829 on the 1901 and 1911 census, his death certificate (informant Myrtle Herbert) gives his age as consistent with being born in 1829.

    In 1868 when he married, his wife was only 19 and he gave his age as 30. I wonder if he adjusted his age so that he would not appear to be so much older than his bride.

    In any case, the original marriage register entry may provide clues: Richard's status (bachelor or widower), possibly place of residence, and names of witnesses.

  10. #10
    wbaynton
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    Hi, Adele.

    I was sent both a transcript and the register. you know what? Until now, I hadn't seem the top part with the age of 87 yrs 11 months. I had been puzzled by someone having penciled in "92", which until now I took to be his indicated age, for a 1915 death. I now see from other penciled numbers in the register that it must be assigning a record number. Yes, thks, after his imminent birthday, that would place his birth yr at ~ 1827. Thank you for the suggestion wrt seeking out the marriage cert. I'd also like to know if he was with his parents/siblings in Canada or they were behind, and I suppose the England census for the family identified previously will also assist. FYI, Myrtle HERBERT 1897-1915 of his eldest son, George 1897. Note that she died the same year as he did. You folks collectively are just a little too sharp for me... I wonder whether his wife, my ggm, always knew his actual age and what he was reporting on the record... Continuing thks.

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