William & Polly Spence

[Sue Mackay]

Realised I had a couple of credits to use up.

William John Hector SPENCE, so of William SPENCE, draper, and Mary Ann Jane nee BROOKE, was born at 43 High Street, Branderburgh, Moray on 11 October 1888. Parents' marriage 31st January 1887 Register Office, Strand, London.

There are a couple of possible births in the London area but given the above place of marriage, I would be inclined to go with Alice Mary A SPENCE, birth regsitered Strand Sep qtr 1887 vol 1b page 676

Can't immediately find the births of the other children in either Scotland or England

[JohnJackson]

Just searched the US Social Security Death Index for Ernest - the only one with any possibility was:
Ernest SPENCE
Birth Date: 14 Feb 1902
Death Date: Apr 1968
Social Security Number: 267-05-4474
State or Territory Where Number Was Issued: Florida
but this would have given him being born in England/Scotland .....
Thanks Sue - I've asked the Archivist if I can see the application "for indulgence passage to bring him and his family to South Africa from England". I plan to visit Lindley on my return journey - CT to Jo'burg to UK. I'll look for tombstones of mum's Aunt Polly.

[JohnJackson]

Trying to use the Scots BMD index but it's not as easy as England & Wales I am a member of ScotlandRecords but can't find my name & password so will begin again - seems more difficult for the Scots but the records are better once pays for them. Out for dinner this evening and the restaurant manager knew Lindley in the Orange Free State (1000km North of Cape Town) - I feel I know it already!!

I thought I was beginning to track them down Strand to Scotland to OFS and then Ernest jumps on a boat to New York! Who said we travel more nowadays.

[Sue Mackay]

William John Hector SPENCE, so of William SPENCE, draper, and Mary Ann Jane nee BROOKE, was born at 43 High Street, Branderburgh, Moray on 11 October 1888. Parents' marriage 31st January 1887 Register Office, Strand, London.

Sadly he didn't live that long. I see that NAAIRS has a death notice in the Free State Archives for William John Hector Spence in 1917.

[JohnJackson]

Thanks Sue - I'd asked for the document but wasn't sure of its meaning. Guessed it might mean DEATH but my Afrikaans isn't up to much. I've also got a death of
DEPOT VAB SOURCE MHG
TYPE LEER SYSTEM 02 REFERENCE 39894 PART 1
DESCRIPTION SPENCE, ANNIE DOROTHEA. NOOIENSVAN SLAUGHTER. EGGENOTE WILLIAM JOHN HUNTER SPENCE.
STARTING 1947

- the middle name is Hunter and I wondered if it maybe a blunder. No response from Bloemfontein, yet.

The Gauteng office has indicated that they might send copies to Cape Town to look at there. I'll try on Monday and let readers know if this facility works.

John

Can anyone translate the Afrikaans above?

[Sue Mackay]

Thanks Sue - I'd asked for the document but wasn't sure of its meaning. Guessed it might mean DEATH but my Afrikaans isn't up to much. I've also got a death of
DEPOT VAB SOURCE MHG
TYPE LEER SYSTEM 02 REFERENCE 39894 PART 1
DESCRIPTION SPENCE, ANNIE DOROTHEA. NOOIENSVAN SLAUGHTER. EGGENOTE WILLIAM JOHN HUNTER SPENCE.
STARTING 1947

- the middle name is Hunter and I wondered if it maybe a blunder. No response from Bloemfontein, yet.

The Gauteng office has indicated that they might send copies to Cape Town to look at there. I'll try on Monday and let readers know if this facility works.

John

Can anyone translate the Afrikaans above?

NOOIENSVAN = maiden name
EGGENOTE = spouse

I am not an Afrikaans speaker but I have learned these ones

When it comes to death notices, just like death certificates in the UK, they are dependent on the knowledge of the surviving informant. Whilst in theory South African DNs list the parents, place of birth, date of death of any previous spouses and the names of all children, occasionally fields are filled in with that horrible word "unknown"

Stiill, my idea of genealogical heaven would be Scottish birth and marriage certificates, English census returns and South African death notices. It seems as if you have been lucky enough to get all three in this family

[JohnJackson]

Thanks Sue. After writing for translation I suddenly thought to myself, "Why ask the World to translate the language everyone here was supposed to pass in Matric until recently." We had books to return to our Simon's Town library so I asked there. I will look for Polly's grave stone in both the Methodist & NG (Dutch Reformed Church) in Lindley.

Curiously when I Googled Spence in South Africa I discovered a connection between Spence & De Pass families. When I googled the De Pass family I find they came from Kings Lynn, Norfolk as did Polly's father and 100 years later where by chance we've settled. What did the "Spence & De Pass" company trade in? Penguin Guano. What is Simon's Town famous for today? Its vast penguin colony on Boulders Beach.

I wish I had your skill & knowledge Adele, Sue et al. Thanks for all you've done - I'll dig deeper into the guano...........

[JohnJackson]

How about this! A bit like Saul on the road to Damascus - perhaps overstated. Rejoined ScotlandsPeople and search for their third in line - first born Strand where they were married, second Branderburgh and named William after his father BUT the 3rd was born in Elgin and is John Loombe Culham Spence and identical christian names to his g'father now living in the Strand. The Loombe name goes through each generation since Norfolk 1742 and the Culham bit (again Norfolk) was gt g'mother's surname and included as a forename for each of her children. No doubt about that then but ........ I've searched & searched the ScotlandsPeople site and cannot find Mabel, Florence, Iris or Evelyn (Evyline). Who was the father - William? He's not with them in the Strand 1891 census so I can't find his birthplace - he's neither of the 2 William Spence's around Elgin for the census either so ..........

[Sue Mackay]

Good find! Interesting that John Loombe Culham Spence was actually born before the 1891 census on 12 November 1890. He doesn't appear with his mother and siblings in London with his maternal grandfather in 1891, so I wonder if he is somewhere in Scotland with his paternal grandparents (if we knew who they were!) assuming he was too young to go visiting down south? Or he could be with William, but mistranscribed

Have you got the marriage certificate of William SPENCE to Mary Ann Jane BROOKE? That should at least tell you the name of William's father.

I can't immediately see the other children either, but it's interesting that the three we have found have all had multiple Christian names. Perhaps they were known by a middle name but indexed by the first one.

[JohnJackson]

That's what a true researcher sees - he was born before the census so where was he! No I haven't got their MC but will organise it for my return to the UK late next month. Intend visiting the Cape Town Archivist on Monday 1st March to see what I can get from them. Wonder if the Loombe name persists here in South Africa somewhere?