Finding Nana's Mother

[macbeth]

Nice theory, but as far as I know the rest of the family stayed in Perth. It seems his second wife (Sophia) died during/shortly after the birth of Leslie/Norman - 31st May 1898 in Perth. She is buried in Karrakatta cemetary.

He, and all his other children continued to live in Perth, John is in Perth on the electoral roll in 1903.

The only thing I can think of as to why John returned to Melbourne with the child was that maybe Sophia's family was there, and he was planning to leave him with them. I have not done much on Sophia, it appears she was born Jersey (Channel Isles).

I think I also need to get the inquest details, does anyone know how I go about that, please?

The more I think about this, the more it does my head in, so sorry if I'm sounding a bit grumpy .

Thnak you all for your help
Beth.

[CassieK]

Hi Beth

The bride's mother's name was not detailed on South Australian marriage certificates in 1885. The mothers' names were not detailed until 1964.

Inquest records at PROV
https://www.access.prov.vic.gov.au/pu...OVguide071.jsp
https://www.access.prov.vic.gov.au/pu...OVguide008.jsp

The files can be viewed in the reading rooms at PROV or alternatively you may employ an agent. All details on the above links.

There is only one JOB headstone at Melbourne General Cemetery and unfortunately it is not your Sarah/Elizabeth. Sarah/Elizabeth and Norman are obviously in unmarked graves.

Perhaps you should read the Letters of Admin etc. for Sophia - she died intestate.
https://proarchives.imagineering.com....sp?searchid=54

There is another LE COUILLIARD appearing on the indexes in that period...an Alfred Francis with wife Margot MOSS. Perhaps he was Sophia's brother.

LE COUILLIARD Alfred Francis b. Jersey
MOSS Margaret b. Ballarat
1888 Reg#7001

Not the first time I have seen a marriage registered in what may not be the person's given registered name but in a name they are known by and would use that name to sign documents eg birth registration of a child. A member of staff [sometimes porters] may have registered the death in 1892 and if Sarah Ann was Elizabeth's registered name, and was the name given to hospital on admission, then that would account for not only the death registration but the burial record. Who was the informant on Sarah Ann's 1892 death cert?

Alfred's death...just in case he is her brother....parents' names

LE COUILLIARD Alf Franc
Father Le Couilliard Geo Mother Sophia DE GRUCHY
Prahran 78 years 1944 Reg#10808

Hope you are feeling better

Cassie

[kermie62]

With respect to the Sarah Jane/Elizabeth question, one important fact that I have discovered is that persons may be called by one of three names during thier life.

a) Thier first name
b) Thier second name
c) Thier pet name

And either can appear in documents.

For example I have a hypothetical grandparent called Thirza Susan Smith. On her birth records it could be down as thirza Smith however it was quite likely she could have been called Susan through her life and when buried, buried as Susan Smith. This did happen to a relative of mine.

Also I have an ancestor called Elinor Rolfe Coombe who was called Lilly by the family and she may be listed as Lilly Coombe in some records.

The use of the middle name and pet names was a natural cosequence of the past practise of naming children after relatives and you could possible have three generation in a house with the same first name.

It is possible that your Elizabeth is actually Sarah Ann. perhaps her full name was Sarah Ann Elizabeth or perhaps Elizabeth was the pet name or there was a child born of the same namne and she changed it to make it simple.

Also dont trust too far the legnth of time in the colony and other such information. The person who knew this was dead and relatives or the informant may not have known and guessed.

[ChristineR]

Nice theory, but as far as I know the rest of the family stayed in Perth. It seems his second wife (Sophia) died during/shortly after the birth of Leslie/Norman - 31st May 1898 in Perth. She is buried in Karrakatta cemetary.

He, and all his other children continued to live in Perth, John is in Perth on the electoral roll in 1903.

The only thing I can think of as to why John returned to Melbourne with the child was that maybe Sophia's family was there, and he was planning to leave him with them. I have not done much on Sophia, it appears she was born Jersey (Channel Isles).

I think I also need to get the inquest details, does anyone know how I go about that, please?

The more I think about this, the more it does my head in, so sorry if I'm sounding a bit grumpy .

Thnak you all for your help
Beth.

No, it wasn't theory it is a fact that Norman was in Victoria when he died, aged a few months. He and the other two children could have been left in care of a relative, grandparents, siblings, from either side of the family until John organized himself to be able to care for them back in WA.

John Exon obviously had homes in both WA and Victoria at the same time. It would be polite to visit family to tell them of the death of his wife and show them his children. I don't find it odd that he would bury the child of his second wife with his first wife, that would not be all that uncommon. It would have been odd if the child had died in WA as you first thought. If he died in an institution, then it was normal to hold an inquest.

By the way, I have noticed that being enrolled is actually no guarantee that a person is still living at that address at the time. I've found some of my lot moving about, a wife would enrol, but the husband would still be enrolled at his parents address. I've found some being enrolled in two places at the same time.

The WA death certificate might give you Sophia's parents, and maybe where she was born in the Channel Islands. But they are very expensive. The Vic marriage certificate would give them for sure, at half the price.

It seems that Elizabeth and Sarah Ann are the same person, if not then they must be sisters. What if she was really Sarah Ann, but called herself Elizabeth because she had run away from employment or pretended her parents were dead. It is also possible that Elizabeth has given the wrong name for her father at the time of her marriage, if she grew up without one.

Do you have the SA marriage certificate? the witnesses might yield a clue, and also there should be a note about parental consent since she was under age.

[macbeth]

Hi Cassie,
I had found all the probate info, thank you.

The informant on the death cert is the hall porter from the hospital, so I guess everything must be taken with a grain of salt.

I have obtained the burial details from the cemetary, he again says she was born in SA, and signed off on her as being Sarah Ann *sigh*. He paid 5 shillings for a "label" whatever that means.

I'd have thought there would have been an inquest given the cause of death, which looks like a dodgy abortion (pyosalpingitis peritonitis), poor love, but I dont seems to have been able to find one.

Maybe I should pursue the Sarah Ann Brown path in SA, but I'm not sure even if there were any how I could tie them back to our girl.

Thnak once again for all your help

[ChristineR]

I'd have thought there would have been an inquest given the cause of death, which looks like a dodgy abortion (pyosalpingitis peritonitis), poor love, but I dont seems to have been able to find one.

I thought in this case it would mean complications following a miscarriage. (spontaneous abortion it is sometimes called)

I seem to recall that Procat gave you a reference for the birth of a Sarah Ann Brown of the right age with a father John in an earlier post.