Who were these children?

[Carol R]

Hi

Henry Thomas Markham married Elizabeth Barrett in 1856 at Bethnal Green.
In the 1861 census there are 3 children all born before that date. They are all described as 'sons'. I am trying to find out who these children were. Had Henry been married before or were they illegitimate to Elizabeth and later took the Markham name. I have not been able to find them on FreeBMD or IGI, so any help would be greatly appreciated. They were-

William Markham c 1849 gives birth place as Walworth or Newington
John Joseph Markham c 1850 gives birth place as Newington
Richard Markham c 1853 gives birth place as Newington

I have not been able to find any of them in the 1851 census either

Thanks
Carol

[busyglen]

I haven't had chance to have a look yet Carol, but a thought occurred to me. I have a case where my gt. grandfather and gt. grandmother had several children before marrying although to all intents and purposes appeared married. They got into money difficulties, and so they `assumed' another name and moved house. During this time, my grandmother was born and was registered under the assumed name making it very difficult for me to trace, until I discovered their secret. They then married years afterwards, and my grandmother assumed the married name. Several of the children were never registered.

My point is, there are so many different things that can happen to a family, that it's worth considering all these possibilities when you try to unravel what happened.

Good luck. I'll see if I can find anything.

Glenys

[kermie62]

As I understand it there was something special about bethnel green others may be able to tell you about.

What about the later census's. Did William stay in the one location. If you are luckyu and he did, you may have to go back to the orginal 1851 census pages on flim. I have one ancestor I couldnt find oon the online databases but found him on the film of the original census returns.

I ahve had a brief look using John Joseph as it is an uncommon name. I can find one birth on FreeBMD in 1898 of a John Joseph Markham. It is general rule of thumb that often children are named after thier parents. My family is "nortorious" for that. This child could be a grandchild of your John Joseph. Looking for deaths, ther eis a death of a John Joseph in 1893 who was 41 when he died which makes him a strong possibility for being your John Joseph. His death certificate would give you some information regarding his parents and you could look at his details in the census to confim that that is the correct person. Alternatively there is another John Joseph in 1882 aged 59 which could be an uncle/grandfather and this requires investigation in the census data.

I would also suggeast following these people forward in the census data and sometimes you get lucky and have a grandmother, a cousin or another relative staying the night.

Unfortunately you have three of them around and getting married so it may take some investigation

[busyglen]

I'm having difficulty in finding the 1861 Census piece. There are a couple in Bethnal Green, but this Henry is a Shoemaker and wife is Rebecca. Children don't match up either. Obviously I'm on the wrong track. Do you know what Henry's occupation was?

Glenys

[Pam Downes]

Looking for deaths, ther eis a death of a John Joseph in 1893 who was 41 when he died which makes him a strong possibility for being your John Joseph. His death certificate would give you some information regarding his parents and you could look at his details in the census to confim that that is the correct person.

Sorry Kermie, but English and Welsh death certificates do not give so much information as Australian ones. There is no information regarding parents unless it's a child who died and then in the occupation column it might say 'son of Fred Bloggs ag lab'.
Barbara Dixon's excellent site give comprehensive details about BMD certificates in England and Wales.
Pam

[kermie62]

Sorry Kermie, but English and Welsh death certificates do not give so much information as Australian ones. There is no information regarding parents unless it's a child who died and then in the occupation column it might say 'son of Fred Bloggs ag lab'.
Barbara Dixon's excellent site give comprehensive details about BMD certificates in England and Wales.
Pam

Thanks for that Pam, I should have remembered.

[joette]

What not even a Father's name on an English/Welsh death certificate? How the heck do you know you have the right person then & is it still the case-fanning herself in disbelief!?

[pennydog]

Can you let us know the census ref no. for 1861, like Busyglen I cannot find them.

[Peter Goodey]

I think in 1861 the reference must be RG 9/386 f 80 p 14

[Peter Goodey]

Had Henry been married before or were they illegitimate to Elizabeth and later took the Markham name?

Having found the marriage certificate I would say it's as certain as can be that Elizabeth was the mother of John Joseph. Whether Henry was the father, remains to be seen