Elizabeth Smith born Derbyshire abt 1841.

[revdfg]

My grandmother was Mary White, baptised in Radford, Nottingham 13 Nov 1872.

Her parents were William White and Elizabeth and I am trying to find Elizabeth's origins.

From the 1871 Census: 35 Gamble Street, St Mary, Nottingham
William White 46 Nottinghamshire, Head, Blacksmith
Elizabeth White 30 Derbyshire, Wife
Frederick White 11 Codnor, Derbyshire, Son, Scholar
Henry White 4 Codnor, Derbyshire, Son, Scholar
Annie E White 3 months Nottingham, Daughter

From the 1881 census: 35 Gamble Street, Nottingham
William WHITE Head M Male 58 Nottingham, England Blacksmith
Elizh. WHITE Wife M Female 40 Derby, England
Fredk. WHITE Son U Male 21 Codner, Derby, England Lace Maker
Hy.Smith WHITE Son Male 14 Derby, England Blacksmiths Apprentice
Annie E. WHITE Daur Female 10 Nottingham, England Scholar
Mary WHITE Daur Female 8 Nottingham, England Scholar <FONT color=royalblue>MYd M Male 58 Nottingham, England Blacksmith
Elizh. WHITE Wife M Female 40 Derby, England
Fredk. WHITE Son U Male 21 Codner, Derby, England Lace Maker
Hy.Smith WHITE Son Male 14 Derby, England Blacksmiths Apprentice
Annie E. WHITE Daur Female 10 Nottingham, England Scholar
Mary WHITE Daur Female 8 Nottingham, England Scholar MY GRANDMOTHER
Arthur WHITE Son Male 6 Nottingham, England Scholar
Alice Maggie WHITE Daur Female 1 Nottingham, England

From the 1891 census: 143 Forster Street, Radford, Nottingham
Henry W White, head, 68, Blacksmith, born Nottingham
Elizabeth, wife, 50, Housewife, born Derby
Annie E, daughter, 25, Lacemender, born Nottingham
Mary, daughter, 18, dressmaker, born Nottingham
Arthur E, son, 16, telegraphist, born Nottingham
Alice M, daughter, 11, scholar, born Nottingham
Maud, daughter, 8, scholar, born Nottinham

</P>So William's wife Elizabeth was born in Derby or Derbyshire about 1841.
Also her first two children are Derby boys - born Codnor. All the other children were born in Nottingham.

Could have simply been a move - but the only marriage record I can find is as follows:
WILLIAM WHITE m ELIZABETH SMITH
Marriage: 28 FEB 1870 Saint Andrews, Derby
Groom's Father: JOHN WHITE
Brides's Father: TIMOTHY SMITH
Elizabeth's record is found at Derby: 7b/504 ??
and Williams's at Derby 7b/501 ??

Now, if this is the correct marriage, then it is possible that at about the age of 46 William married Elizabeth aged about 28 who already had two sons of about 10 and 2. And between the ages of 46 and 60 William fathered 6 further children.

The marriage details give Elizabeth's father as Timothy Smith - so it seems that Smith was her maiden name. Was she married before her marriage to William?

Can anyone with access to 1841, 1851 or 1861 records or baptism or marriage records for Derbyshire help me to find out a little more about Elizabeth and her family?

Thank you.

[Peter Goodey]

"Now, if this is the correct marriage"

That's a big IF isn't it?

Have you considered the two marriages involving a William WHITE on FreeBMD in 1858 - one in Derby & one in Nottingham - both with an Elizabeth on the same page? 1858 is at least more consistent with the ages of the children - in fact just right for young Fred. However, perhaps you've discounted them for some reason.

By the way Codnor, Codnor Park (and Loscoe if you need it) are neatly all on piece 2431 of the 1861 census. If nobody has an index, it wouldn't take you very long at all to look through the relevant parts of the film.

[revdfg]

Thank you, Peter, for questioning my choice of Elizabeth Smith as the bride in question. It has made me take stock a little. But I think the clues are there for Elizabeth having two children before her marriage to William White.

I had I think already spotted the other possible marriage in 1858 on FreeBMD but I had made my provisional choice from the fact that in the 1891 Census Henry is listed as Henry SMITH White, working as Blacksmith's Apprentice for his "step-father". My assumption was that he was probably given the name Henry Smith at birth and took on the name Henry Smith White once his father married Elizabeth.

I have found on Ancestry
HENRY SMITH Christening 30 Oct 1867 Saint Andrews, Derby
Annie Elizabeth White Christening 22 Feb 1871 Saint Andrews Derby
Mary White Christening 13 Nov 1872 Saint Andrews Derby (My grandmother)
Arthur Edwin White 13 Jan 1875 Saint Andrews Derby
Lilian White 9 Jan 1878 Saint Andrews Derby
Alice Maggie White 1 Oct 1879 Saint Andrews Derby

So all but Frederick, the first born, and Maud, the last born seem to have been baptised at St Andrews Derby - and yet the Censuses 1871 and 1881 have the family living in Nottingham during the decade of these baptisms.

This seems to suggest a strong family connection with St Andrews, Derby. Presumably it had become the home church for either the White or the Smith family. There are certainly a number of other White baptisms during that period, which MIGHT suggest that William White had siblings or cousins in that area.

What would be really useful would be census entries for both Elizabeth Smith (born about 1841) from 1861 Census (or before) for Derbyshire. And could anyone supply Census data for William White born about 1823 in Nottingham from the 1861 Census (or before). Since he was born in Nottingham and resided in Nottingham from 1871 onwards I would guess Nottingham 1861 (or ealier) Census.

Meanwhile, I will send to GRO for the Marriage Certificate for William White to Elizabeth Smith. Parental or witness information may give some further clues.

[Rod Neep]

Well.... we have his baptism in Nottingham

26 Jan 1824 William, son of John WHITE & Sarah
Mansfield Road, Blacksmith
Baptised at Nottingham St. Mary's

Whilst we are on a roll.... here's an earlier baptism of a brother:

4 Mar 1822 Joseph
Glasshouse Street, Blacksmith
Nottingham St. Mary's

I'm going to have to give you a choice of marriages for the parents John & Sarah:

4 Dec 1821 John WHITE & Sarah RAGG at Sneinton
1 Dec 1818 John WHITE & Sarah MARSHALL at Nottingham St. Mary's
14 Aug 1814 John WHITE & Sarah BULLOCK at Nottingham St. Peter

Cheers
Rod

[revdfg]

Thanks, Rod

Puts a bit more flesh on old bones. Now you've left me with a nice puzzle about his Parents, John and Sarah.

Thank goodness for "always on" Broadband!

[Christine]

"And could anyone supply Census data for William White born about 1823 in Nottingham from the 1861 Census (or before). Since he was born in Nottingham and resided in Nottingham from 1871 onwards I would guess Nottingham 1861 (or ealier) Census."

Just checked the 1851 Index for William White and there isn't one in Nottingham married to an Elizabeth.

If you confirm this is what we should be looking for I'll check 1841 and 1861.

Regards, Christine

[revdfg]

I think he was still single in 1851. He MAY be residing with his parents, thought to be John White and Sarah (both born roughly 1800).

[revdfg]

Thanks to those who have done lookups in Notts for the above couple.

Negative results seem to suggest that even though William White was born and Baptised in Nottingham (bapt. 26 Jan 1824), and lived in Nottingham with Elizabeth from at least 1971 onwards, there are strong Derbyshire connections.

I believe that William and Elizabeth married at St Andrews Derby 28 Feb 1870 and that they made the return treck from nottingham for the baptism of most of their children.

Could SKS with access to Derbyshire 1851 and/or 1861 Census see if they can find:
William White born Nottingham 1823/4
Elizabeth Smith born Derbyshire 1841 (baptised at St Alkmund, Derby 25 Apr 1841)?

You could solve a mystery or two.