John Rivotta, born around 1910?

[Jonesy]

The newspapers might be worth a look, but it would be a long shot. The best collection for this area is at Southwark Local Studies library (temporarily located at Peckham Library). They don't offer a research service though, so you would need to visit yourself or have someone go on your behalf.

Yes I'm thinking about that visit. At least it looks like I have only two papers to check (the Southwark and Bermondsey Recorder and the South London Press); shouldn't take long!

[Jonesy]

Well, it's still a brickwall, but I've found out a little more about my Granddad's possible family.

Ruby's brother, Ernest, served during WW1 in the Household Cavalry, and married Rose Jarvis in Richmond in 1916. They had a daughter, Doris Maud, in 1917 at Windsor.

Ruby and Ernest's sister, Gertrude, is listed as Ernest's next of kin on his Military History Sheet. Her address listed at that time is 16 Lorraine Road, Holloway.

On Jack's (possibly Granddad) birth certificate, has the name of the informant as what looks like 'E.Burgess Brown'. Having searched the 1911 census in the address listed for this person (21 St John's Grove), I find a Harry and Nellie Burgess Brown, daughter Kathleen, and Ernest Rivolta aged 24, listed as a 'visitor'. Ruby is already married and at another address by then.

The mystery continues!

[Kerrywood]

On Jack's (possibly Granddad) birth certificate, has the name of the informant as what looks like 'E.Burgess Brown'. Having searched the 1911 census in the address listed for this person (21 St John's Grove), I find a Harry and Nellie Burgess Brown, daughter Kathleen, and Ernest Rivolta aged 24, listed as a 'visitor'.

Jonesy, that is very encouraging

I don’t know if you've got this already, but this could be the relevant marriage.

Marriages
Dec Qtr 1903
BROWN Harry Edward B Richmond,S. 2a 933
Creeden Johanna Richmond, S. 2a 933
Linehan Thomas Richmond, S. 2a 933
Shuttle Ellen Richmond S. 2a 933

So perhaps the informant on John/Jack's birth was E[llen] Burgess BROWN?

We need to track Harry Edward Burgess BROWN and Ellen SHUTTLE back through the census to see if there is any connection with the RIVOLTA family. Have you already done that?

Kerrywood

[Jonesy]

We need to track Harry Edward Burgess BROWN and Ellen SHUTTLE back through the census to see if there is any connection with the RIVOLTA family. Have you already done that?

No Kerrywood, this is all news to me. But very interesting and a definite addition to me 'research to do' list!

[Jonesy]

The 1911 census document itself asks for details of people who were at the address, who: "passed the night of 2nd April 1911" or were there on the morning of the 3rd - does that mean the census was taken around that time?

This is key, because my Grandfather was admitted to the Bermondsey Guardians in 30th June 1911 - my entire research could colapse at this point!!

[Kerrywood]

The 1911 census document itself asks for details of people who were at the address, who: "passed the night of 2nd April 1911" or were there on the morning of the 3rd - does that mean the census was taken around that time?

Yes, it was taken not just around that time, but at exactly that time -- the night of 2/3 April 1911. The people listed should have been at that address on that date.

Don't panic!

Kerrywood

[Jonesy]

I know it's been a long time since this thread was updated, but I have a bit more information.

Ruby died in 1947. Her death certificate informant is her daughter, Violet Dorothy Delahunty, who was living in East Finchley at the time.

Ruby's brother, Ernest, served in WW1, married Rose Jarvis and had a daughter, Doris Maud; he died in 1942. His death was reported by his daughter, Dorothy Maud Rabjohns, living in Maidenhead. Ernest was then a Cafe Proprietor in Dorking.

Ruby's husband, Henry Albert Wills served in WW1 also. On his Short Service Attestation record, he answers the question Are You Married with "yes / 2 children". Two children? At this we time we have Violet, born 1910, and Gertrude Emma, born 1913, but what about the Jack Wills mentioned on the 1911 census?

I can't find a record of a Jack Wills of the right age dying after that time, so perhaps he was abandoned after all, and Henry no longer regarded him as his child?

Violet died in Barnet in 1992. Gertrude passed away in 1991 in Greenwich.

I'm hoping to now track down descendants of these two ladies, perhaps even finding some living relatives. Whether or not they will know about / want to talk about an abandoned child is another matter, of course.

I also intend to visit Southwark Local History Library (which have records temporarily held at Peckham Library), on the off chance there's something in the local papers of the time about Jack being abandoned, but I realise this a very long shot.

Thanks to AdeleE for the Henry Albert WW1 records heads-up.

[Kerrywood]

Glad to hear you've made some more progress.

Violet died in Barnet in 1992. Gertrude passed away in 1991 in Greenwich.
I'm hoping to now track down descendants of these two ladies, perhaps even finding some living relatives.

You might want to get both those death certificates and try contacting the informant on each?

There was a recent thread with some thoughts on doing this here.

Kerrywood

[Jonesy]

Struggling to make the connection

I'm confused; can someone please help?

My possible great grandmother Ruby Rivolta, is living with her brother Ernest in 1901 with Elizabeth Knight, a School Governess of 58 who was born in Poole, Dorset. She is the head of the household.

Ruby and Ernest are described as "niece" and "nephew" respectively. So either Elizabeth is sister to their father, Joseph Rivolta, or their mother, Maud Rivolta?

However I can't find a marriage record where a Rivolta maiden name has married a Knight.

If her maiden name isn't Rivolta, how is she the aunt? Or is this neice/nephew description an anomoly of turn-of-the-century culture?

In 1891 Elizabeth is either a visitor of another family, or with her husband (Solomon Knight) and children in Brighton, or I haven't found her yet.

Don't know where she is in 1911.

[Wilkes_ml]

However I can't find a marriage record where a Rivolta maiden name has married a Knight.

Could Elizabeth be on a second marriage when she married Mr. Knight?

Just had a look at the original 1901 census and Elizabeth Knight is single - so was Ruby's mother a Knight by birth?