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  1. #11
    spison
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    We are also of "black Irish" descent (as yet unproven (if ever!)) from county Cork (This is proven). We have redheads and those of Spanish appearance in siblings in many generations on my mother's line - so much so that when my great-aunt went on a holiday to Argentina the locals were a little annoyed that she wouldn't respond to them as they found it difficult to believe that she couldn't understand them.

    TomBradley: Is this report available online?

    Jane
    Last edited by spison; 27-09-2009 at 9:54 PM. Reason: Asked the question

  2. #12
    TomBradley
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    Default Black Irish Study

    Dear Jane,

    On the assumption you are asking me if the study is available, go to:

    https://www.gen.tcd.ie/molpopgen/resources.php

    or simply look up Dr. Dan Bradley in Google something like "Black Irish - Spanish influence in Ireland." Feel free to sontact me directly.

    Tom Bradley
    Last edited by Geoffers; 28-09-2009 at 7:36 AM. Reason: removal of e-mail address

  3. #13
    Carmy
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomBradley View Post
    The Irish - more Spanish than Celtic?

    Scientists have concluded that the Celts did not invade Ireland en masse, nor did they replace an earlier group.

    Despite the widely held belief that the Irish are descended from Celts who invaded Ireland about 2,500 years ago, a 2004 genetic research study at Trinity College, Dublin (TCD) appears to argue against it.

    The Celtic cultural heritage in Ireland is prolific and informs the common perceptions and beliefs about the national identity and its origins. From traditional cultural sources in language, legend and literature the Celtic influence is strong and can also be found in contemporary culture such as Enya and the Afro Celt Sound System. The research however suggests that our blood if not also some (at least) of our culture can or should be attributed to wider origins: Spain, Portugal, Scandinavia and North Africa.

    The study, conducted by Dr. Dan Bradley and Brian McEvoy, a Ph.D student conducted this genetic study with the support of the Irish government to determine “whether there was a large incursion by Celtic people 2,500 years ago” as is widely believed.

    The scientists compared the DNA samples of 200 volunteers from around Ireland with a genetic database of 8,500 individuals from around Europe. (The Celts came from Central Europe stretching as far as Hungary).

    They found that the Irish samples matched those around Britain and the Pyrenees in Spain. There were some matches in Scandinavia and parts of North Africa.

    The scientists concluded that ‘the Irish’ genetic makeup stems from the onset of an ice-age around 15,000 years ago that forced prehistoric man back into Spain, Italy and Greece, which were still fairly temperate. When the ice started melting again around 12,000 years ago, people followed the retreating ice northwards as areas became hospitable again.

    The TCD study produced a map of Europe with contours linking places that are genetically similar. One contour goes around the edge of the Atlantic touching Wales, Scotland, Ireland, and includes Galicia in Spain as well as the Basque region.

    Some archaeologists also doubt that there was a Celtic invasion because few of their artifacts have been found in Ireland.

    “The primary genetic legacy of Ireland seems to have come from people from Spain and Portugal after the last ice age.” said McEvoy. “They seem to have come up along the coast through Western Europe and arrived in Ireland, Scotland and Wales. It’s not due to something that happened 2,500 years ago with Celts.” We have a much older genetic legacy.

    The findings are published in The American Journal of Human Genetics at the University of Chicago.

    Does this finally help explain the ‘dark Irish’ phenomenon?

    Fascinating! I agree -- it is unlikely that there was a Celtic invasion 2,500 years ago. Were that the case, we'd all be speaking the same Celtic language, surely, so this goes part way to explain the difference in P-Celtic and Q-Celtic languages. In Ireland and Scotland, the language is Gaelic (Q-Celtic), different from the Brythonic (P-Celtic) spoken in Cornwall, Devon, Brittany and Wales. It probably explains why sentence structure in Spanish is the same as in P-Celtic. It may also be the same in Q-Celtic, but I don't speak Gaelic so I can't tell.

    The map of contours linking different countries around the Atlantic is also interesting. The course "touches on" Wales. Is this why so many Welsh people along the eastern coast of Wales are dark? I always assumed it was because of the Roman influence, which was heaviest in that region. To the west and inland, there are far more fair-haired and blue-eyed people.

    My husband was of Irish-Spanish descent. His surname began with D' . He turned so dark in summer that someone at a regatta in Bristol shouted "Bl**dy P*k*. Go back to your own country."

  4. #14
    Mary S (WA)
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    Talking Spanish Blood in Irish - muchas forte!

    Great to read all these comments from the intitial enquiry.
    The connection between Ireland and Spain has always intrigued me. I have not yet been able to find out anything concerning another story about Jews expelled from Spain (some of whom may have escaped to Ireland) and also the ties formed through trade with Spaniards from the region near Cape Finisterre.
    The genetic aspect is strong. My dad had dark brown hair & eyes. In an early photo his father looks even darker. I have never seen a photo of my grandmother (from Kinsale) so I have no idea what her complexion was like. Her family probably originated even further southwest as Harrington is a very common name in that region and they may also have had Spanish blood in their DNA.
    My mum (Irish father, Scottish mother) and her 3 brothers all had red hair, fair skin, freckles and blue eyes. I ended up with dad's darker complexion and eyes and so have all our 5 children. My husband has green eyes. His parents both come from Korcula Croatia yet his brother, who married a dark haired girl from the same island, has 3 children with fair hair, blue eyes and fair skin. The cousins with 'the Pommy mum' always looked several shades darker than their cousins who had both parents with a mediterranean background. Out of the 4 grandparents only my dad had brown eyes. Yet the dark (what I think of as the 'Spanish gene') dominated with three of our our 5 children looking distinctly Spanish.
    It's very interesting to see. Before I knew anything about this I had always felt an affinity for Spain and a keen desire to learn to speak Spanish. Surely that couldn't last for an ice age &/or 2500 years!!!
    Anyone else out there with a similar experience?
    Cheers Mary S
    Last edited by Mary S (WA); 28-09-2009 at 5:48 AM. Reason: typing errors

  5. #15
    JAP1
    Guest

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    Well Mary, no doubt one day we'll just be able to take a mouth swab, feed it into a machine, and learn where all our ancestry came from!

    My Irish ancestry is from Co Mayo (BURKE & RAFFERTY) and Co Galway (STAUNTON & O'DONOGHUE). I have fair hair and blue eyes! My late sister had red hair and blue eyes (as did my late mother).

    It's all very interesting.

    JAP

  6. #16
    scousecan
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carmy View Post
    It probably explains why sentence structure in Spanish is the same as in P-Celtic. It may also be the same in Q-Celtic, but I don't speak Gaelic so I can't tell.


    My husband was of Irish-Spanish descent. His surname began with D' . He turned so dark in summer that someone at a regatta in Bristol shouted "Bl**dy P*k*. Go back to your own country."

    That's fascinating to learn about the similarities in sentence structure Carmy! Thanks for sharing that!

    Now about your husband... Omg! I hope he took it well. Some people have no manners! Mine has the same problem. His kin are both from co Longford and he tans so darkly in the summer that his friends tease him that he must have Native blood in him. But we know better!

  7. #17
    scousecan
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mary S (WA) View Post
    It's very interesting to see. Before I knew anything about this I had always felt an affinity for Spain and a keen desire to learn to speak Spanish. Surely that couldn't last for an ice age &/or 2500 years!!!
    Anyone else out there with a similar experience?
    Cheers Mary S
    I also wanted to learn Spanish but attributed that to being half French. I felt I had a leg up since the vocabularies are quite similar.

    I had a weirder experience. I have always had an affinity for ships and pirating. So if past lives exist-guess where I was! I must admit that as a female, this is somewhat unusual. Adventurous, but unusual!

  8. #18
    spison
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    Quote Originally Posted by scousecan View Post
    I have always had an affinity for ships and pirating. So if past lives exist-guess where I was! I must admit that as a female, this is somewhat unusual. Adventurous, but unusual!
    Could be you scousecan! There were female pirates - forgotten their names but you can google. One of those might be a long lost ancestor!

    Jane

  9. #19
    Carmy
    Guest

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    You're welcome, Scouscan. I studied Spanish a few years ago, that's how I came to recognise the sentence structure.

    My husband's family all came from Bristol so you can imagine his reaction when he was called something not nice. He had an Irish temper on him.

    There were quite a few female pirates, and they were said to be deadlier than the males, so you could well have been one in an earlier life. Wouldn't it be great to have a time machine?

  10. #20
    Mary S (WA)
    Guest

    Default Bradley

    Quote Originally Posted by TomBradley View Post
    Dear Jane,

    On the assumption you are asking me if the study is available, go to:

    https://www.gen.tcd.ie/molpopgen/resources.php

    or simply look up Dr. Dan Bradley in Google something like "Black Irish - Spanish influence in Ireland." Feel free to sontact me directly.

    Tom Bradley


    Where do your Bradley ancestors originate?
    Mine are from the wild and woolly west coast of Mayo. They all fled to what they hoped would be better pastures in USA (Philadelphia & Cleveland I know of) to Lancashire in UK and even to Australia - not that I have come across any here.
    Cheers to all bearers of the Bradley handle!

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